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returntothepit >> discuss >> local bands asking for guarantees for local shows by sever on Jul 20,2011 1:19pm
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toggletoggle post by sever at Jul 20,2011 1:19pm
what the fuck, niggah, you ain't on tour.



toggletoggle post by KEVORD  at Jul 20,2011 1:23pm
If they're not Vital Remains or on Relapse tell them to go eat shit.



toggletoggle post by xmikex at Jul 20,2011 1:27pm
intheshit's guarantee is that you won't invite us back.



toggletoggle post by nekronaut  at Jul 20,2011 1:28pm
BEARDNACHT gets 87% of the door.



toggletoggle post by xgodzillax  at Jul 20,2011 1:29pm
xmikex said[orig][quote]
intheshit's guarantee is that you won't invite us back.





toggletoggle post by sever at Jul 20,2011 1:31pm
more like the venue wont let me book shows again



toggletoggle post by narkybark   at Jul 20,2011 1:34pm
or just don't book them? Is it anyone who actually has a draw?



toggletoggle post by goatcatalyst   at Jul 20,2011 2:44pm
Locals who ask for more than a few beers when I've got touring bands and/or bitch about going on first when I have out of state bands on the bill who would otherwise have that spot can suck my great and terrible prick.



toggletoggle post by ShadowSD  at Jul 20,2011 2:44pm
Whether it's reasonable for a local to ask for a guarantee depends on how long they've been playing around the area, how long they've headlined shows around the area, and how good they hold up right now at the moment as a live band. Without a really solid answer to all three, no local is in a position to even think of asking for a guarantee on a multi-band show. Our band didn't get to the point where we could ask for guarantees until after we had played over a hundred shows across a few different states and headlined several dozen of them.



toggletoggle post by swampthing at Jul 20,2011 2:52pm
i had a local band ask for a guarantee once. they double booked the night and showed up too late to play. they also drew zero fans. it was awesome.



toggletoggle post by goatcatalyst   at Jul 20,2011 2:53pm
ITT: when "Go home, faggot!" is all too applicable



toggletoggle post by Alx_Casket  at Jul 20,2011 2:55pm
I had a few locals (YOU KNOW WHO YOU FUCKING ARE) ask for a guarantee when I booked shows, I lold.



toggletoggle post by hauptpflucker   at Jul 20,2011 2:56pm
is it a christian metalcore band?



toggletoggle post by Alx_Casket  at Jul 20,2011 3:03pm
A couple of death metal bands actually, but cover bands love asking for guarantees. Fucking losers, go play for guidettes at the Bell in Hand.



toggletoggle post by nekronaut  at Jul 20,2011 3:09pm
New thread title suggestion: ATTN VITAL REMAINS: GTFO



toggletoggle post by Josh_hates_you  at Jul 20,2011 3:37pm
there are a few "bigger" locals that have asked for $200 when i tried to book them. needless to say i didn't book them.



toggletoggle post by Seth at Jul 20,2011 3:40pm
I would tell the bands to enjoy the exposure and what you get is what you get from a show. Not including if they sell merchandise or if they even get beers or gas money. It is better then nothing and if they are serious about shows, they will learn to play for free. It use to be about playing and getting known? We all had to do it at one point!



toggletoggle post by sever at Jul 20,2011 3:46pm edited Jul 20,2011 5:10pm
narkybark said[orig][quote]
or just don't book them? Is it anyone who actually has a draw?


The show is happening in their home field, so yes they would have some draw. I won't name names, but I don't think its the band, I think this is more of an issue of their management feeling overconfident. I extended the offer of splitting money at the door but we'll see how that goes. None of us have the money to pay a guarantee.



toggletoggle post by sever at Jul 20,2011 3:52pm
ShadowSD said[orig][quote]
Whether it's reasonable for a local to ask for a guarantee depends on how long they've been playing around the area, how long they've headlined shows around the area, and how good they hold up right now at the moment as a live band. Without a really solid answer to all three, no local is in a position to even think of asking for a guarantee on a multi-band show. Our band didn't get to the point where we could ask for guarantees until after we had played over a hundred shows across a few different states and headlined several dozen of them.


I feel that asking for a guaranteed pay out is in the grey-area of the ethical concerns. Certainly, if you are booked on tour, regardless of draw, you should be paid something. Touring isn't easy, you gotta eat, you gotta drive, and sometimes $20 from the door isn't going to cut it. But in an instance where a band has very little travel distance and doesn't have to take major risks such as putting jobs or families on hold, asking for a guarantee is almost self-righteously rude.



toggletoggle post by xmikex at Jul 20,2011 3:53pm
The one and only time I ever asked for a guarantee:

Betrayed By All got an unsolicited email from Dave Southward of I'm Thirsty Entertainment fame asking if we wanted to play with Hoods at awesome Rockos. It was supposed to be a 7:00 Friday show with 4 or 5 bands. Within a week of the show it was 9 bands, first band playing at 5:00. Dave wrote us a message informing us that load in was at 4 no exceptions. We told him that we were all coming from an hour or more away, and that we'd be there by 7 considering we were supposed to play around 9. He emailed us back saying that if we wanted to show up late we'd be playing last because Hoods refused to headline (also a cool story).

I told him if we're playing last I want at least a $50 guarantee to cover the gas it takes to drive to NH to play for no one. He got butthurt about it, and I told him I never would have asked for a cent if he hadn't tried to make us play last.

The appendix: My drummer got stoned on the way to the show and it took him till almost 9 to find the venue. We played like shit to practically no one. Everyone showed up at the last minute to watch Hoods who acted like a bunch of dicks despite selling a billion dollars worth of stupid brass knuckle t shirts.



toggletoggle post by sever at Jul 20,2011 3:59pm
hahahah. Dave's intern recently contacted us about a show offer. We noticed that there was no mention of ticket sales. Surprised, almost delighted, we agreed. After receiving our confirmation, the intern speedily responded letting us know there was a ticket obligation. Basically, eat shit and die.



toggletoggle post by arkquimanthorn at Jul 20,2011 4:04pm
The way I see it, if you're local, rarely play shows, and have GOOD draw, asking for a SMALL guarantee for a local show isn't the end of the world. It doesn't mean you have to slight touring bands or screw up the flow of the show. Playing for free (read: losing money every time) gets old.



toggletoggle post by dreadkill  at Jul 20,2011 4:08pm
i think local bands should be satisfied with taking a cut of the money the show brings in, rather than a guarantee. it sucks if you're the band who brings in the most people and you get the same cut as the band who brought no one, but as long as you're getting something out of a show that does well, you should be somewhat satisfied.



toggletoggle post by xmikex at Jul 20,2011 4:09pm
sever said[orig][quote]
Dave's intern



bennyhillifier



toggletoggle post by sever at Jul 20,2011 4:09pm
arkquimanthorn said[orig][quote]
Playing for free (read: losing money every time) gets old.


I can relate to this big time... but if you can't bring the people you shouldn't be asking for a definite sum of money. I will settle for a cut of the door any day, at least then you get paid for who actually came.



toggletoggle post by Archaeon at Jul 20,2011 4:22pm
I'm more pissed off by promoters who won't pay locals on an all local show that does well.



toggletoggle post by ShadowSD  at Jul 20,2011 4:24pm
For us it depends on the show. There are occasionally smaller gigs with lower cover charges ($5 - $7 range) where we still make an exception to play a show being put on by one our friends' bands or because it's good exposure even as an underground show, despite no guarantees, and on the other side there are really big shows where we'll play with a national even though there's also no guarantee in that case, also for the exposure.

For other shows we headline, where it's on a weekend and particularly where we play a super long set or bring a PA for all the bands or work our butts off to draw/sell tickets despite the guarantee being there - or a combination of all three at the same time - it's not unreasonable to get a guarantee. Same goes for a show where we play all night or there's only one opening band playing a short set.

However, we played a LOT of shows paying our dues before we could do that, and as I mentioned it's still important at any level short of a major label deal to be open to playing shows without guarantees as well or a band is needly closing themselves off to potential exposure.



toggletoggle post by BlessedOffalNLI at Jul 20,2011 5:08pm
Im pretty sure BO has never been payed for a single show we've played.



toggletoggle post by Samantha at Jul 20,2011 5:16pm
I don't think bands should expect a guarantee unless they're signed to a well-known label or on tour. There are probably a few exceptions to that, but if you're playing at a small club within a few miles of your house, the cover is less than $10, and you draw about 20 people, don't expect a $500 guarantee. It's common sense. Do the math.

nekronaut said[orig][quote]
New thread title suggestion: ATTN VITAL REMAINS: GTFO


When you've been doing this stuff for more than 20 years, you're on Century Media, and you tour internationally with bands like Cannibal Corpse, Deicide, and Hate Eternal, you're allowed to ask for a guarantee. You're also allowed to not want to deal with any bullshit because you've already seen all varieties of bullshit in 20+ years of touring.



toggletoggle post by BlessedOffalNLI at Jul 20,2011 5:25pm
youre also allowecd to put out a slew of dogshit records and act like your fan base consists of more than just mongoloid overnight patch jacket metalheads and 14 former marilyn manson fans who just saw ace ventura the first time and bought a cannibal corpse album as a result.



toggletoggle post by aaron_michael  at Jul 20,2011 5:28pm
Samantha said[orig][quote]
I don't think bands should expect a guarantee unless they're signed to a well-known label or on tour. There are probably a few exceptions to that, but if you're playing at a small club within a few miles of your house, the cover is less than $10, and you draw about 20 people, don't expect a $500 guarantee. It's common sense. Do the math.

nekronaut said[orig][quote]
New thread title suggestion: ATTN VITAL REMAINS: GTFO


When you've been doing this stuff for more than 20 years, you're on Century Media, and you tour internationally with bands like Cannibal Corpse, Deicide, and Hate Eternal, you're allowed to ask for a guarantee. You're also allowed to not want to deal with any bullshit because you've already seen all varieties of bullshit in 20+ years of touring.


This.



toggletoggle post by Yeti at Jul 21,2011 8:08am
local band playing local show + asking for guarantee = band that thinks they are better than the others.

i firmly disagree with asking for a guarantee unless you are on a major label and can draw a phenomenal crowd. even drawing 30 people to a local show isn't guarantee worthy, you get a cut of the door. Asking for a "guarantee" means you "guarantee" to make it worth the club's while. and after playing a mountain of local shows with countless local bands, chances are you aren't going to fulfill that. not that no one can, but the odds are that you are going to promise the world, and not come through. If you are specifically asked by a ďpromoterĒ to play a show that is further than you would normally drive, and it really does equal extra work on your part to make it happen, asking for a ďguaranteeĒ of gas money isnít totally unethical.

Iíll use Metal Thursday simply as an example here, but say you have your name out there and have contacted Chris to play, then he offers you a slot, itís a decent drive from where you live, then to ask for a guarantee would be absurd. You contacted him. were it vice versa, then asking for some gas coverage would be ok in my eyes.

Itís a tricky situation, but overall your band probably isnít going to draw like you think you can unless you are in your home town, and asking for a guarantee then would be just plain silly. Get off your high horse, this is local music, if you donít want to play without being paid, then have fun never playing. Unless your CSDO, then you are floating in a sea of pennies.



toggletoggle post by RustyPS  at Jul 21,2011 8:47am
we guaranteee that FIVE people will show up for us, no more, no less



toggletoggle post by MetalThursday  at Jul 21,2011 10:37am
Negotiate, negotiate, negotiate. Both parties need to be realistic and reasonable. Offering to put the terms in contract form may help, although I've only ever had to do that for a handful of touring bands. Being honest and fair is usually enough to reach a "handshake" agreement.



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at Jul 21,2011 10:52am
i think it depends on the circumstances. metal and rock shows can differ. hard no 9 gets $100.00 and $200.00 guarantees sometimes but we will play for 2+ hours and have decent draw just about every time. but most of those shows are the result of the club contacting us. you dont necessarily have to be on a label to get a guarantee but there has to be a valid reason to provide one. i dont see why its wrong for a band to ask for one but it is very wrong to always expect one and get pissy when you dont. another valid reason to ask for a guarantee would be when setting up a tour so you can try to have each show pay to cover the expenses of getting to/from the next venue.



toggletoggle post by RichHorror  at Jul 21,2011 10:55am
BlessedOffalNLI said[orig][quote]
Im pretty sure BO has never been payed for a single show we've played.


Yeah, I didn't give you around a hundred bucks for that Mammoth Grinder show.



toggletoggle post by xmikex at Jul 21,2011 11:03am
FuckIsMySignature said[orig][quote]
we will play for 2+ hours




toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at Jul 21,2011 11:05am
cool red X bro



toggletoggle post by RichHorror  at Jul 21,2011 11:07am
FuckIsMySignature said[orig][quote]
cool kith gif bro



toggletoggle post by ShadowSD  at Jul 21,2011 10:19pm
FuckIsMySignature said[orig][quote]
hard no 9 gets $100.00 and $200.00 guarantees sometimes but we will play for 2+ hours and have decent draw just about every time.


This.

If a band plays a long set, it's really a different situation. Also, bars that book one or two bands to play a night and give guarantees are completely different than a club booking four or more metal bands; those kind of pay-guarantee bar shows have been around for decades, but you have to be able to play long and please a diverse crowd, often throwing in a couple of covers here and there sometimes - and while I wouldn't put it as a rock vs. metal split as you did - I think it's more accurate to say that it's not as much of an option for a band that only has very heavy originals in their set and nothing else, or a band that hasn't had the time to put together more than a an hour or two set.

Yeti said[orig][quote]
Iíll use Metal Thursday simply as an example here, but say you have your name out there and have contacted Chris to play, then he offers you a slot, itís a decent drive from where you live, then to ask for a guarantee would be absurd.


I also agree with this, it would make no sense for a non-touring band to ask for a guarantee on a MT instead of a cut of the door. As Samantha put it, one has to do the math. If the cover's $6 and the soundguy has to get paid first, big guarantees are fantasy land. (FWIW, we are not asking for any guarantee for this MT we are playing nor have we ever in the past, it's more than fair the percentages they use to split up the door given it's a local weeknight show.)



toggletoggle post by blue  at Jul 21,2011 10:44pm
i remember years and years ago when TYAG had local show guarantees listed on their webpage. lulz



toggletoggle post by whiskey_weed_and_women  at Jul 21,2011 11:18pm
Brown M&M's and a young asian grrl to massage before and after our set. Only pre held Nate Newton PBR's in our green room and of course Today is the Day playing any song we request from the right before our set.



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at Jul 22,2011 12:33am
xmikex said[orig][quote]
FuckIsMySignature said[orig][quote]
we will play for 2+ hours



now i can see the image (gif.) but i dont get it. are you surprised at my statement or just dont believe me?



toggletoggle post by whiskey_weed_and_women  at Jul 22,2011 12:43am
Haha



toggletoggle post by xgodzillax  at Jul 22,2011 1:33am
I have a personal rider.

for me to make an appearance:
-2 (two) 2-liters of vanilla coke.
-4 (four) Monster Nitrous, anti-gravity energy drinks.
-5 (five) full sized hello kitty beach towels.
-2 (two) life-sized cardboard cut-outs of mark e. salomone (same as the one in his dudley square office window)

and $4047 dollars. or you know, $20



toggletoggle post by xgodzillax  at Jul 22,2011 1:35am
and if you believe that post, and have some snarky response, you need to be slapped by eric paones girlfriends bare cunt.



toggletoggle post by Randy_Marsh at Jul 22,2011 1:40am
DUDE WE ONLY HAVE TWO HELLO KHEDDY TOWELS



toggletoggle post by xmikex at Jul 22,2011 9:18am
FuckIsMySignature said[orig][quote]

now i can see the image (gif.) but i dont get it. are you surprised at my statement or just dont believe me?


As a person who gets restless playing my own band's 12 minute set I'm just shocked to hear that anyone would play for 2+ hours at a local show. Not dissin' it bro. Just a guy with no attention span being surprised.

*fist bump*



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at Jul 22,2011 9:28am
lol ya i hear ya. for heavy music i think anything over 30 minutes is generally just too much. but for classic rock shit you can stretch it with some covers and just jamming out for fun. also we'd break it up onto 45-50 minutes sets.



toggletoggle post by arkquimanthorn at Jul 22,2011 9:47am
FuckIsMySignature said[orig][quote]
for heavy music i think anything over 30 minutes is generally just too much.


yeah, 99% of the time this is true



toggletoggle post by Blessed_Offal at Jul 22,2011 10:28am
xgodzillax said[orig][quote]
and if you believe that post, and have some snarky response, you need to be slapped by eric paones girlfriends bare cunt.


come on dude, NOONE deserves that.



toggletoggle post by ShadowSD  at Jul 22,2011 10:57am
I remember the first time we had to play a whole night ourselves, it was at this place called the Blue Tree Cafe in Ansonia, CT near the beginning of 2003. We just played all our originals, covers we liked, and a couple improv jams here and there, broken up into three sets. All metal, but we have 90% clean vocals and lots of clean or melodic guitar parts so there was enough dynamics to balance it. We started to do this at a bunch of places, and while it's a long night (lug and set up PA, play for four hours including breaks, break down PA and get to sleep at 5 am), it was good to mix those in once in a while with club shows because the pay was decent and it was a great time.

The bars and the bar crowds expecting some half assed classic rock barely competent band were always pleasantly surprised by a metal band that was tight, we threw in War Pigs or Looks That Kill or House of the Rising Sun along with our own stuff and it all went over well. These days, we have two hours plus of originals, meaning we can practically play a full night just doing that at this point.

I have to say, I LIKE playing a long set, and being able to take a break with a drink and a few rips before going back up there is a great fucking time.



toggletoggle post by eyehatehippies  at Jul 22,2011 12:10pm
Definitely depends on the show.

I was always taught there are three good reasons to take a show:

1) For exposure
2) To play with a band that you really want to play with
3) For the money

I weigh those three things over, and ask for guarantees accordingly. There are other reasons I take shows or ask for money as well, but those three things are generally the most important.

And I always ask for a guarantee on local shows, but usually I'll take a door deal. A guarantee is just what I consider an "opening offer", I'll make my case of why we would need money to play the show, and the promoter is free to make his case as to why he does or does not want to pay us, and to make a counter offer.

I then have the choice and freedom to either accept the counter offer, or to further haggle/barter/negotiate on the terms of the show. Either party has the choice and the freedom to decline or withdraw the offer at any time, up until an agreement is reached. Don't want to pay a band that asks for a guarantee for a local show? That's very simple, don't book them. If a band doesn't want to play shows where they are not given a guarantee by the promoters? That's very simple, decline to play shows unless you are paid.

To me, it's personal choice, I'm not going judge a band based on how they choose to run things from a business standpoint. Everyone has their reasons, and their justifications. It's like Huck Finn always said, "You pays your money, and you takes your choice."



toggletoggle post by brodown at Jul 22,2011 1:00pm
I have no problem asking for a guarantee or when a band asks me for one, depending on the situation. That being said, when I'm putting a show together, I almost never offer guarantees, and I usually won't agree to them if a band asks. That being said, I'll also pay bands from out of town out of pocket if I have to (very rare.)





toggletoggle post by Yeti at Jul 22,2011 1:08pm
ShadowSD said[orig][quote]
I remember the first time we had to play a whole night ourselves, it was at this place called the Blue Tree Cafe in Ansonia, CT near the beginning of 2003. We just played all our originals, covers we liked, and a couple improv jams here and there, broken up into three sets. All metal, but we have 90% clean vocals and lots of clean or melodic guitar parts so there was enough dynamics to balance it. We started to do this at a bunch of places, and while it's a long night (lug and set up PA, play for four hours including breaks, break down PA and get to sleep at 5 am), it was good to mix those in once in a while with club shows because the pay was decent and it was a great time.

The bars and the bar crowds expecting some half assed classic rock barely competent band were always pleasantly surprised by a metal band that was tight, we threw in War Pigs or Looks That Kill or House of the Rising Sun along with our own stuff and it all went over well. These days, we have two hours plus of originals, meaning we can practically play a full night just doing that at this point.

I have to say, I LIKE playing a long set, and being able to take a break with a drink and a few rips before going back up there is a great fucking time.


long live the Turnhall.



toggletoggle post by ShadowSD  at Jul 22,2011 2:38pm
Here here.



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at Jul 22,2011 2:40pm
only 14+ shows are real



toggletoggle post by Lamp nli at Jul 22,2011 2:53pm
If your band is capable of drawing people under 14, you're doing it wrong.



toggletoggle post by DestroyYouAlot  at Jul 22,2011 3:06pm
Lamp%20nli said[orig][quote]
If your band is capable of drawing people under 14, you're doing it wrong.


You gotta trick the parents into letting the kids bop with you!




toggletoggle post by RichHorror  at Jul 22,2011 3:07pm
Seth said[orig][quote]
I would tell the bands to enjoy the exposure and what you get is what you get from a show. Not including if they sell merchandise or if they even get beers or gas money. It is better then nothing and if they are serious about shows, they will learn to play for free. It use to be about playing and getting known? We all had to do it at one point!


LOL



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