What's more disturbing is how they kill the first responders (children in the car too) and then say "that's what you get for bringing children to battle"
With any war, stuff like this is expected.
What's bad is the attempted cover up following this incident. They lied to the families, the media, everyone.
post by porphyria at Apr 6,2010 10:14am
watched last night, while I see the dudes carrying cameras there is at least one guy that's carrying what looks like an rpg or AK, definitely not a camera. Also the cameras did look like weapons.
Nope, the release of this video was announced weeks ago. The CIA and wikileaks have been stuck in a tug of war for a few months now. Just a week or so ago they released a private memo exposing part of their geopolitical agenda.
In short, this video has been anticipated by millions and won't go away. The MSM will bury it and focus more on the mining deaths that just happened.
This video will be used by anti war activists for a while. It will hang in the alternate media.
lol. So true.
I really hope people start realizing how the msm is pure garbage and propaganda. RUPERT MURDOCH and TURNER OWN YE ALL!
post by ark at Apr 6,2010 10:40am
from reddit
TL;DR: I'm military and been right over that neighborhood at a different time; the video may be disturbing but doesn't strike me as unjustifiable. The coverup is what we should save our real vitriol for. I know some of you will immediately dismiss this as you view everyone in the military as inherently evil. I find that silly. (There are also people who think I can do no wrong because I AM and I find that dangerous). Give it a read anyway.
War is an ugly, atrocious action. Bad things happen every day; good things only rarely. It's a waste of money, time, potential, and especially lives. What's in this video is distasteful to say the least, but it's also intentionally inflammatory (presumably so WL gets more clicks, and we all obliged them). This video is from a period of increasing, and increasingly violent, action by insurgents. Mortar and rocket attacks, IEDs/EFPs, executions in the most grotesque manner, were all becoming the norm.
The men you hear are reacting to stress from a variety of sources: lack of sleep because of indirect fire attacks, stress from friends being WIA/KIA, stress from feeling little support from the Iraqis at that time, from being away from home and family. In all that stress, they still behaved according to the rules of engagement. They positively identified small arms (which are a threat) and misidentified an RPG. Had I not known, I would also have called out RPG. It unfortunately looks like it, and that was amplified by the pose he took. WL added in captions to let you know there were cameras to amplify outrage, but having flown around Baghdad in helos everything looks like a threat after they shoot at you.
Shooting the van was also justifiable because the "insurgents" were going to collect their wounded and weapons. Clearly the aircrew were wrong, but not unjustifiably and probably only in hindsight. They followed the ROEs, received approval to fire, and did so efficiently. Further, the initial statements that said they were engaged with a violent group also does not strike me as "cover up." If you've ever been involved with an emergency situation you know the first reports out are usually wrong. The later reports, however, I find repugnant. Events like this make me want to stay in the military because I don't want the bastards trying to cover up what was a horrific mistake thinking I won't be right over their shoulder next time.
I have found virtually all the military members I was with in Iraq serious, professional (at least on duty!), and genuinely concerned for civilians. You saw the soldiers running out with the kids. Genuine concern there, from fathers, older brothers, cousins that know kids like that back home. The amount of work we did to keep civilians out of harms way was breathtaking sometimes because it put us in much more vulnerable situations. I'm good with that. I signed up, they didn't. As for the attitude and demeanor of the aircrew, yep, it's stomach-turning. I did see this on occasion, and it's not something I've seen many redditors say they teach you in training. It's a defense mechanism to deal with the privations and violence you see. Dehumanizing the enemy makes it easier to deal with it. If you've never read or seen a synopsis of On Killing you absolutely should. That's why running over a body was seemingly funny. I'm ashamed to say I've had similar gut reactions of really terrible things, and like those guys I feel awful about it when I reflect.
This post isn't to justify the killings, but hopefully to tone down some of the hyperbole. It's a terrible tragedy; it's a waste; I'd love to see us out of Iraq as soon as feasible. It's not a war crime. It's not 18-year-old kids just wanting to kill people for the fun of it. Now, let's all be pissed together that it took this long to get the real story out. OK, too long of a ramble but I needed to get it off my chest. Ask away if you have questions; I'll tell you what I can.
Former Blackhawk pilot, Iraq veteran here. I understood engaging the first group of people. Anything resembling an RPG is going to be interpreted as a first order threat by any aircrew. And if you have any experience with that sort of threat, you know it doesn't really work like the movies. There's no.... 'RPG, five o' clock, break left...' from your crew chief. That shit doesn't work in the real world. RPG's, despite their reputation, move faster than any ordinary human can react to. By the time any crew member is done telling you about it, it's already past you. So you have to identify and engage it before it's fired. Which is what the Apache crew was trying to do. I have no problem with this.. right or wrong, they saw a potential threat and acted appropriately. Firing on the van, however, is in my opinion as a former Army Aviator, a complete departure from any ROE I've ever been subject to. Bottom line is, no weapons or hostile intent were evident. I can't think of any reason why they should have fired on the van. 'Enemy combatants' are fair game, but there's nothing in the video to suggest that the occupants of the van were doing anything but removing a wounded person from the battle. In war, horrible things happen and this is one of those things. After spending more than a year of my life in Iraq, I can't rationally defend the actions of these particular pilots but I can't stress enough that they are NOT an example of business as usual in Iraq. In all of my time in that theater of operations, I never witnessed such an example of disregard for ROE. The vast majority of soldiers over there are exercising restraint and good judgment to a point where it puts their very lives in great danger. This was a horrible, horrible thing that happened. But don't ever think it's 'just the way things are' in Iraq. It isn't.
