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returntothepit >> discuss >> Alex Jones Exposes the Osama bin Laden Hoax by arilliusbm on May 4,2011 10:55am
Add To All Your Pages!
toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 4,2011 10:55am
Lol. You Don't have to believe him, but at least try to be open minded and see through propaganda, whether it be govt or not.

[YouTube=fpBPVkpmoeg]



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 4,2011 10:57am
embed fail.



toggletoggle post by pam nli at May 4,2011 10:57am
I just don't fucking care.



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 4,2011 10:58am
? Works fine for me



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 4,2011 10:58am
most people dont. this why are country is currently FUBAR.



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 4,2011 10:59am
just shows as on my screen

[YouTube=fpBPVkpmoeg]



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 4,2011 11:01am
Why's everyone hate on truthers so much?



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 4,2011 11:02am edited May 4,2011 11:03am
watching now. thoroughly unsurprised. whats the over/under on when this guy gets killed or completely discredited?



toggletoggle post by goatcatalyst   at May 4,2011 11:03am
These posts just ring hollow knowing that they weren't posted from deep within the bowels of the Fed



toggletoggle post by pam nli at May 4,2011 11:03am
FuckIsMySignature said[orig][quote]
most people dont. this why are country is currently FUBAR.


And you don't think Alex Jones is just as much a propaganda spewer as everyone else?

You can't say all news is bullshit except this one guy who I believe every time because obviously he is pious and lie-less and has no motivation or self-interest in promoting himself at all...this guy's livelihood depends on making everything that happens an OMG HUGE CONSPIRACY!!11!

And because my son is insisting I click on this, here is bart simpson.



toggletoggle post by pam nli at May 4,2011 11:06am
arilliusbm said[orig][quote]
Why's everyone hate on truthers so much?


Because they're as annoying as religious fundies.



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 4,2011 11:07am
I dont believe everything he says. but people seem to be against questioning things that seem funny or illogical. the more we embrace without question what the government tells us, the more we deserve to deal with rammifications of their lies. thats my only point.



toggletoggle post by ghoulash at May 4,2011 11:09am
alex jones sucks, he is nothing but a fear monger.



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 4,2011 11:10am
ghoulash said[orig][quote]
alex jones sucks, he is nothing but a fear monger.


so is CNN, FOX News and every other major media outlet.



toggletoggle post by pam nli at May 4,2011 11:10am
FuckIsMySignature said[orig][quote]
I dont believe everything he says. but people seem to be against questioning things that seem funny or illogical. the more we embrace without question what the government tells us, the more we deserve to deal with rammifications of their lies. thats my only point.


I don't take anything the gov't says at face value...but that doesn't mean I'm running the lunatic on the other side either. Extremists are all retards.



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 4,2011 11:12am
so do you think i'm a lunatic for thinking this whole situation seems illogical?



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 4,2011 11:13am edited May 4,2011 11:13am
I dont claim to know what really happened. All I know is something is wrong and we've been lied to before in the interest of furthering political and monetary motives/interests.



toggletoggle post by ghoulash at May 4,2011 11:13am
FuckIsMySignature said[orig][quote]
ghoulash said[orig][quote]
alex jones sucks, he is nothing but a fear monger.


so is CNN, FOX News and every other major media outlet.


yup, that's a fact. there is big money in fear and these people know it.



toggletoggle post by ghoulash at May 4,2011 11:17am
Chances are he's not dead. It is pretty obvious that some shady things went
down on 9/11, that is hard to dispute at this point. Election time is coming and
the Obama admin needed a home run for the election. that's really what all
this is about.



toggletoggle post by ark at May 4,2011 11:22am
The facts about OBL are known, his ties to Bush, economic links to CIA, and his entire history in the Middle East. There is no conspiracy. Just takes some reading and research, not listening to windbags like Alex Jones.



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 4,2011 11:23am
there's is no question that Alex Jones is a propagandist in his own right. He is also a fear monger. That being said, he is spot on with a number of issues, specifically the off-shore banking cartel taking over this country.

And not all truthers are like religious fundies. I'm a 'truther' in every regard, and was one even before 9/11 in the sense of seeing through govt propaganda. I stopped trusting my government at a young age; yet never lost love for what the USA represents.
We've been highjacked by the military industrial complex, cater to Israel all too often, and have let the bankers control the economy. We're FUCKED.



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 4,2011 11:25am
ark said[orig][quote]
Just takes some reading and research, not listening to windbags like Alex Jones.


agreed HOWEVER, he's one of few people openly discussing this and pointing others in the right direction to do their own research.



toggletoggle post by Alexecutioner at May 4,2011 11:26am
arilliusbm said[orig][quote]

Donald Trump is planning on running for president

We're FUCKED.



toggletoggle post by pam nli at May 4,2011 11:28am
ark said[orig][quote]
The facts about OBL are known, his ties to Bush, economic links to CIA, and his entire history in the Middle East. There is no conspiracy. Just takes some reading and research, not listening to windbags like Alex Jones.


This.



toggletoggle post by ghoulash at May 4,2011 11:28am
yeah that's pretty much the short and skinny of it all






toggletoggle post by ghoulash at May 4,2011 11:30am
lets just dream of the 90s instead.


bennyhillifier



toggletoggle post by goatcatalyst   at May 4,2011 11:30am
Regardless of what you believe, I welcome the rain of bombs upon Washington.



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 4,2011 11:30am
He only shines in his documentaries, otherwise I can't stomach him anymore. Hes a blowhard and wants to be noticed like Glenn Beck.



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 4,2011 11:43am edited May 4,2011 11:44am
Dead or not and Regardless of when he died or how he died or what was covered up etc etc - the fact of the matter is he achieved his goal. To spread our influence across the world too thin and bancrupt the country. So many trillions of dollars and thousands of lives lost (soldiers and innocent casualties) to kill ONE man. You believe that to be a victory? This is what upsets me.


bennyhillifier




toggletoggle post by Sacreligion at May 4,2011 11:52am
I thought everyone knew Alex Jones is a well-paid misinformation tool of the CIA?



toggletoggle post by brian_dc  at May 4,2011 11:52am
it's a conspiracy conspiracy



toggletoggle post by Sacreligion at May 4,2011 11:54am
He's a double, maybe even a triple conspirator.



toggletoggle post by pam nli at May 4,2011 11:59am
METASPIRACY



toggletoggle post by Sacreligion at May 4,2011 12:02pm
Fox Mulder is pissed.



toggletoggle post by ArrowHeadNLI at May 4,2011 12:33pm
How about an embed that works? Or a link?



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 4,2011 12:34pm



toggletoggle post by oscarct  at May 4,2011 12:35pm
Alex jones is just as bad as anyone he shit talks. He has a agenda just like everyone else. Not everything is a conspiracy. he and Ventura are the worst.



toggletoggle post by ArrowHeadNLI at May 4,2011 12:36pm



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 4,2011 12:39pm
Ventura > Jones



toggletoggle post by FIST at May 4,2011 12:43pm
Alex jones is a piece of shit, he's spewing his conspiracy theory shit all the way to the fucking bank. Complain about the mindless in America but the people drooling over every word of his are just as mindless.



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 4,2011 12:48pm
FIST said[orig][quote]
Alex jones is a piece of shit, he's spewing his conspiracy theory shit all the way to the fucking bank. Complain about the mindless in America but the people drooling over every word of his are just as mindless.


well your post was equally mindless and contained no factual evidence to dispute his claims what so ever.



toggletoggle post by ArrowHeadNLI at May 4,2011 12:49pm
Okay I watched.

Terrible reporting. A lot of claims with no backup or explanation. Maybe if he quoted a few sources, and showed something other than INTERNET research, he could build a compelling ARGUMENT. As it is, this just strikes me as fancy - not even enough effort to be a conspiracy theory.


For instance, the statement that this is the ninth claim of OBL's killing, yet he gives no details. It's just a fucking soundbite, with a quick flash of some joke website as 'evidence'. I don't like soundbites. I'd rather dedicate an hour to hearing someone with actual research and rational dialogue than see a short clip full of soundbites and emotional baiting to argue a pretty wild theory.

This stuff, no offense, is aimed right at people like you - those who already suspect the govt., or buy into these theories. You're more likely to go along with it, since you're pre-disposed. But there's very little compelling evidence here, and what he does have is pretty poorly displayed.





TLDR: I'm not going to believe what Chris Griffin from Texas is trying to tell me.



toggletoggle post by oscarct  at May 4,2011 12:54pm
he expects everyone to name sources but never does so himself..



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 4,2011 12:55pm
I agree. This video was lacking any substantial evidence. It's , like I said, all blowhard tactics.
AJ usually references a number of news articles from around the world/US, yet he didnt do much in this video.
Regardless, there's too many suspicions at this point to completely convince me he was killed. Most importantly, the fact that his body was "buried at sea."

Think about it, there's no proof of ANYTHING right now.. other than what the government has told us. I'm awaiting evidence on both sides of the fence, but for now, I'll stick to my belief that this is a political move given his former CIA ties.



toggletoggle post by goatcatalyst   at May 4,2011 12:58pm
I hope every conspiracy theory is true and buttdart basement dwellers lose their fucking minds and do a mass suicide ritual when the lizardjews remove their sillyhumanmasks and reveal that they built the pyramids, genetically engineered Jesus Christ from donkey poop and the bottoms of Sodom (and later, Lady Gaga), invented patriarchal oligarchy and mayonnaise, sunk the Lusitania, framed Fatty Arbuckle, caused the Depression, backed J. Edgar Hoover, killed Kennedy, tutored Charles Manson, invented disco and subsequently, GRID, caused the NYC blackout of '77, assassinated John Lennon, paid for Nicholas Cage's SAG card, abducted Sam Kinison and faked his death, dissolved the original Danzig lineup, took n00dz of Jon Benet and snuffed her when the bitch tattled, orchestrated 9/11 and then proceed to shoot lazers from their eyes, vaporizing all Gentiles who refuse to submit to their diabolical scheme.



toggletoggle post by pam nli at May 4,2011 1:07pm
arilliusbm said[orig][quote]
I agree. This video was lacking any substantial evidence. It's , like I said, all blowhard tactics.
AJ usually references a number of news articles from around the world/US, yet he didnt do much in this video.
Regardless, there's too many suspicions at this point to completely convince me he was killed. Most importantly, the fact that his body was "buried at sea."

Think about it, there's no proof of ANYTHING right now.. other than what the government has told us. I'm awaiting evidence on both sides of the fence, but for now, I'll stick to my belief that this is a political move given his former CIA ties.


I'm betting they release the photos, I'm also betting they're dismissed as fake right away.



toggletoggle post by ArrowHeadNLI at May 4,2011 1:07pm
People are putting too much importance on the "buried at sea thing". the reason is pretty clear, but it's also clear why they don't come out and say it - it's a sign of intentional disrespect. Kinda like when Bush Sr. always intentionally mis-pronounced Saddam Hussein's name. The U.S. has ALWAYS used tactics like this to fuck with the enemy. And we allow it, as long as it is NOT used against our own citizens. (which it has been, but that's a set of completely different conspiracy videos).

Point being, we didn't just kill him. We took him away. We took away their ability to mourn properly, bury him properly, or even confirm his death themselves (his followers). We buried him in a manner inconsistent with his own people's faith, and without ceremony. I don't think Obama is going to appear on t.v. and tell us they did it to completely fuck with the sand-negros that followed OBL. The whole "any burial place will become a shrine" isn't untrue, it's just a partial-truth. A politically correct version, if you will.



toggletoggle post by pam nli at May 4,2011 1:16pm
What exactly are the requirements for a proper Muslim burial vs what we did? I know that body is supposed to remain whole, be cleaned and wrapped by their version of a priest...which he supposedly was. Is it just the ocean thing?

I also have heard that we offered him to Saudi Arabia and they declined, but that sounds...unlikely.



toggletoggle post by eyeroller at May 4,2011 2:24pm
How come when so-called "liberals" don't like what conservatives say, they call it "spewing ____"?

Honestly, people who call themselves "liberals" are the least liberty-minded people ever, they want the opposite of freedom, they want gov't regulation in friggin everything.



toggletoggle post by narkybark   at May 4,2011 2:35pm
FREEDOM FRIES



toggletoggle post by brian_dc  at May 4,2011 2:43pm
Would be a cooler video if it was Alex Jones choking on a hoagie.



toggletoggle post by FIST at May 4,2011 3:19pm
My favorite videos are the ones when he goes on cry-baby bitch fits sometimes it's almost like he didn't get his bottle of milk and goes on some pathetic temper tantrum and then collects all the idiots money who buy his stupid dvds



toggletoggle post by FIST at May 4,2011 3:21pm
I love how people hang on every word of his. just because some fat alcoholic shut in tells you there is a conspiracy people believe it.



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 4,2011 3:30pm
Be belittles his callers to no end.



toggletoggle post by pam nli at May 4,2011 3:58pm
Well Obama has decided not to release the photographs. I am disappointed because now I have to listen to 20 years or OMGFAAAKKEEEWAAARRGARBL.



toggletoggle post by pam nli at May 4,2011 3:58pm
...or 2 weeks until they leak.



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 4,2011 4:16pm
Didn't watch the vid, here are 11 instances of officials at least speculating on OBL's death from a Prison Planet article (http://www.prisonplanet.com/inside-sources-bin-ladens-corpse-has-been-on-ice-for-nearly-a-decade.html):

- Former CIA officer and hugely respected intelligence & foreign policy expert Robert Baer, who in 2008 when asked about Bin Laden by a radio host responded, “Of course he is dead.”

- On December 26, 2001, Fox News, citing a Pakistan Observer story, reported that the Afghan Taliban had pronounced Bin Laden dead and buried him in an unmarked grave.

- On January 18, 2002, Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf announced: “I think now, frankly, he is dead.”

- On July 17, 2002, the then-head of counterterrorism at the FBI, Dale Watson, told a conference of law enforcement officials that “I personally think he [Bin Laden] is probably not with us anymore.”

- In October 2002, Afghan President Hamid Karzai told CNN that “I would come to believe that [Bin Laden] probably is dead.

- In 2003, former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright told Fox News Channel analyst Morton Kondracke she suspected Bush knew the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden and was waiting for the most politically expedient moment to announce his capture.

- In November 2005, Senator Harry Reid revealed that he was told Osama may have died in the Pakistani earthquake of October that year.

- In February 2007, Professor Bruce Lawrence, head of Duke University’s Religious Studies program, stated that the purported video and audio tapes that were being released of Bin Laden were fake and that he was probably dead.

- On November 2, 2007, former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto told Al-Jazeera’s David Frost that Omar Sheikh had killed Osama Bin Laden.

- In March 2009, former US foreign intelligence officer and professor of international relations at Boston University Angelo Codevilla stated: “All the evidence suggests Elvis Presley is more alive today than Osama Bin Laden.”

- In May 2009, Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari confirmed that his “counterparts in the American intelligence agencies” hadn’t heard anything from Bin Laden in seven years and confirmed “I don’t think he’s alive.”



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 4,2011 4:18pm
But more importantly, if this Steve R. Pieczenik is to be believed, regardless of the Alex Jones context, his interview is more substantial than anything Jones can pull out of his ass on his own:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/top-us-governm...-died-in-2001-911-a-false-flag.html

Top US Government Insider: Bin Laden Died In 2001, 9/11 A False Flag

Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under three different administrations Steve R. Pieczenik says he is prepared to tell a federal grand jury the name of a top general who told him directly 9/11 was a false flag attack

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet.com
Wednesday, May 4, 2011

Top US government insider Dr. Steve R. Pieczenik, a man who held numerous different influential positions under three different Presidents and still works with the Defense Department, shockingly told The Alex Jones Show yesterday that Osama Bin Laden died in 2001 and that he was prepared to testify in front of a grand jury how a top general told him directly that 9/11 was a false flag inside job.

Pieczenik cannot be dismissed as a “conspiracy theorist”. He served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under three different administrations, Nixon, Ford and Carter, while also working under Reagan and Bush senior, and still works as a consultant for the Department of Defense. A former US Navy Captain, Pieczenik achieved two prestigious Harry C. Solomon Awards at the Harvard Medical School as he simultaneously completed a PhD at MIT.

Recruited by Lawrence Eagleburger as Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Management, Pieczenik went on to develop, “the basic tenets for psychological warfare, counter terrorism, strategy and tactics for transcultural negotiations for the US State Department, military and intelligence communities and other agencies of the US Government,” while also developing foundational strategies for hostage rescue that were later employed around the world.

Pieczenik also served as a senior policy planner under Secretaries Henry Kissinger, Cyrus Vance, George Schultz and James Baker and worked on George W. Bush’s election campaign against Al Gore. His record underscores the fact that he is one of the most deeply connected men in intelligence circles over the past three decades plus.

The character of Jack Ryan, who appears in many Tom Clancy novels and was also played by Harrison Ford in the popular 1992 movie Patriot Games, is also based on Steve Pieczenik.

Back in April 2002, over nine years ago, Pieczenik told the Alex Jones Show that Bin Laden had already been “dead for months,” and that the government was waiting for the most politically expedient time to roll out his corpse. Pieczenik would be in a position to know, having personally met Bin Laden and worked with him during the proxy war against the Soviets in Afghanistan back in the early 80′s.

Pieczenik said that Osama Bin Laden died in 2001, “Not because special forces had killed him, but because as a physician I had known that the CIA physicians had treated him and it was on the intelligence roster that he had marfan syndrome,” adding that the US government knew Bin Laden was dead before they invaded Afghanistan.

Marfan syndrome is a degenerative genetic disease for which there is no permanent cure. The illness severely shortens the life span of the sufferer.

“He died of marfan syndrome, Bush junior knew about it, the intelligence community knew about it,” said Pieczenik, noting how CIA physicians had visited Bin Laden in July 2001 at the American Hospital in Dubai.

“He was already very sick from marfan syndrome and he was already dying, so nobody had to kill him,” added Pieczenik, stating that Bin Laden died shortly after 9/11 in his Tora Bora cave complex.

“Did the intelligence community or the CIA doctor up this situation, the answer is yes, categorically yes,” said Pieczenik, referring to Sunday’s claim that Bin Laden was killed at his compound in Pakistan, adding, “This whole scenario where you see a bunch of people sitting there looking at a screen and they look as if they’re intense, that’s nonsense,” referring to the images released by the White House which claim to show Biden, Obama and Hillary Clinton watching the operation to kill Bin Laden live on a television screen.

“It’s a total make-up, make believe, we’re in an American theater of the absurd….why are we doing this again….nine years ago this man was already dead….why does the government repeatedly have to lie to the American people,” asked Pieczenik.

“Osama Bin Laden was totally dead, so there’s no way they could have attacked or confronted or killed Osama Bin laden,” said Pieczenik, joking that the only way it could have happened was if special forces had attacked a mortuary.

Pieczenik said that the decision to launch the hoax now was made because Obama had reached a low with plummeting approval ratings and the fact that the birther issue was blowing up in his face.

“He had to prove that he was more than American….he had to be aggressive,” said Pieczenik, adding that the farce was also a way of isolating Pakistan as a retaliation for intense opposition to the Predator drone program, which has killed hundreds of Pakistanis.

“This is orchestrated, I mean when you have people sitting around and watching a sitcom, basically the operations center of the White House, and you have a president coming out almost zombie-like telling you they just killed Osama Bin Laden who was already dead nine years ago,” said Pieczenik, calling the episode, “the greatest falsehood I’ve ever heard, I mean it was absurd.”

Dismissing the government’s account of the assassination of Bin Laden as a “sick joke” on the American people, Pieczenik said, “They are so desperate to make Obama viable, to negate the fact that he may not have been born here, any questions about his background, any irregularities about his background, to make him look assertive….to re-elect this president so the American public can be duped once again.”

Pieczenik’s assertion that Bin Laden died almost ten years ago is echoed by numerous intelligence professionals as well as heads of state across the world.

Bin Laden, “Was used in the same way that 9/11 was used to mobilize the emotions and feelings of the American people in order to go to a war that had to be justified through a narrative that Bush junior created and Cheney created about the world of terrorism,” stated Pieczenik.

During his interview with the Alex Jones Show yesterday, Pieczenik also asserted he was directly told by a prominent general that 9/11 was a stand down and a false flag operation, and that he is prepared to go to a grand jury to reveal the general’s name.

“They ran the attacks,” said Pieczenik, naming Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Stephen Hadley, Elliott Abrams, and Condoleezza Rice amongst others as having been directly involved.

“It was called a stand down, a false flag operation in order to mobilize the American public under false pretenses….it was told to me even by the general on the staff of Wolfowitz – I will go in front of a federal committee and swear on perjury who the name was of the individual so that we can break it open,” said Pieczenik, adding that he was “furious” and “knew it had happened”.

“I taught stand down and false flag operations at the national war college, I’ve taught it with all my operatives so I knew exactly what was done to the American public,” he added.

Pieczenik re-iterated that he was perfectly willing to reveal the name of the general who told him 9/11 was an inside job in a federal court, “so that we can unravel this thing legally, not with the stupid 9/11 Commission that was absurd.”

Pieczenik explained that he was not a liberal, a conservative or a tea party member, merely an American who is deeply concerned about the direction in which his country is heading.

Watch the full interview with Dr. Pieczenik below.



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 4,2011 4:21pm
So...a dozen people saying "I think he's probably dead" is your conclusive evidence that he's, what, been frozen in an ice cube for 10 years, passed on by Bush Jr and reserved for Barack Obama so he could one-up Donald Trump on fateful Sunday night?



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 4,2011 4:34pm edited May 4,2011 4:35pm
I don't think that's evidence, I was just wondering if that was maybe the nine claims of OBL's death referred to in the video.

As for evidence, there are 2 streams that follow: the testimony of Benazir Bhutto, who, unlike, say Robert Baer or Madeline Albright, was actually in a position to know... And by the same token, her predecessor Musharraf and widower al Zardari would also likely be prone to the same internal Pakistani information.

The other stream is at least slightly corroborated by the Pieczenik interview, namely the handful of Pakistani and other news reports of OBL's natural death circa December 13, 2001.

Bhutto claimed Omar Saeed Sheik murdered OBL, and he was captured in February 2002, so both of these possibilities indicated an OBL dead for at least 9 years.

Neither is a strong chain of evidence, but both are certainly more substantial than anything offered by the Pentagon/CIA via their lackey O-bomb-a... And are supported by further logical analysis, in re: the lack of Osama tapes (other than CIA fakes) after 9/28/01, and the unlikeliness of someone with severely advanced kidney disease could have survived this long (even if the discussion of marfan syndrome is ignored).



toggletoggle post by burnsy at May 4,2011 4:37pm
pam said[orig][quote]
So...a dozen people saying "I think he's probably dead" is your conclusive evidence that he's, what, been frozen in an ice cube for 10 years, passed on by Bush Jr and reserved for Barack Obama so he could one-up Donald Trump on fateful Sunday night?


I didn't see him say anything about conclusive evidence. Actually, it appears he said it was speculative.



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 4,2011 4:39pm
I'm using your in terms of everyone claiming Osama has been dead for ten years.



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 4,2011 4:41pm
Huh?



toggletoggle post by ark at May 4,2011 5:01pm
In 2001 it was known he had health problems. I always thought the most likely case was he died "somewhere in Asia" in 2001-2002 and was buried in an unmarked grave with full Islamic rites by his lackeys. It's more likely than any other alternative, especially considering what is STILL being sold to the public.



toggletoggle post by brian_dc  at May 4,2011 5:04pm edited May 4,2011 5:05pm
I'm not naturally inclined to conspiracy theory...at all. Like even a little.

But I really figured that we'd never know for sure whether the dude just died of natural causes. Granted, it seems like the dialysis/kidney stones/whatever speculation is also just that, speculation.

I was surprised to hear that this was coming up now. And I think it's well within the rights of perfectly reasonable people to be skeptical.

Of course, the unreasonable shout the loudest and with the most notoriety. I'm really jaded. I have nothing to contribute.



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 4,2011 5:04pm
Political move was political.

Well played.



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 4,2011 5:04pm
I just dont understand how it would take 10 years to find a fugitive of this caliber requiring a Dialysis Machine to stay alive... in a shithole compound no less. your telling me no one would have ratted him out for the reward? if this is all true then we have a bunch of fucktards in the CIA who should all set themselves on fire for being such failures.



toggletoggle post by dreadkill  at May 4,2011 5:07pm
goatcatalyst said[orig][quote]
framed Fatty Arbuckle


this totally makes the rant. well done.



toggletoggle post by ark at May 4,2011 5:12pm
b_dc, fair enough, but not even talking about 9/11, I haven't come across a single soul that can come up with a good enough reason for the US invasion of Afghanistan, because Bush and Cheney's wasn't good enough.



toggletoggle post by ark at May 4,2011 5:14pm
ark said[orig][quote]
I haven't come across a single soul that can come up with a good enough reason for the US invasion of Afghanistan,
except of course for "conspiracy theorists" and "truthers".



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 4,2011 5:22pm
FuckIsMySignature said[orig][quote]
I just dont understand how it would take 10 years to find a fugitive of this caliber requiring a Dialysis Machine to stay alive... in a shithole compound no less. your telling me no one would have ratted him out for the reward? if this is all true then we have a bunch of fucktards in the CIA who should all set themselves on fire for being such failures.


Last I read the concrete evidence of his almost-dead condition wasn't exactly reliable either. But that was a long time ago and I honestly don't care enough to google it now. But it is the same government you're saying is 100% lying right now, so why do you take their word for it there but not here? It seems...convenient.

I'm not saying shit Tom outside of this: the majority of people who are conspiracy theorists will always say everything is fake. The loudest voices are not out for "truth", they are out to prove themselves right and feel like Guy fucking Fox in their mother's basement. It doesn't matter what evidence comes up, they'll find a reason to "debunk" it. It just goes on forever and ever and ever because there's nothing you can show someone that they can't make up a blog post about and cry FAKE.

I just find the whole knee-jerk everything is a LIE OH GOD THE LIES shit just as sheep-like as the people who just take everything they hear on CNN at face value and find it fun to tease you all because you get your manties in a wad about it every.single.time.

I read the "mainstream" news, I read international news, I read most of your crazy links, I read whatever people offer up usually...but no, I'm not going to just buy the Glen Becks of infoterror just because they claim anti-government. That doesn't make them any more credible than anyone else and it seems you think that = BRAINWASHED BY MAINSTREAM MEDIA.

This is absolutely my limit for serious posting on RTTP for a week and fuck you for making me typing all this. You owe me a beer.



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 4,2011 5:25pm
:(

i'm just having a conversation pam. i'm sorry you take it so personally.



toggletoggle post by ark at May 4,2011 5:25pm
Fuuck. Only being an extreme skeptic to the point of doubting yourself 24 hours a day is real.



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 4,2011 5:26pm
and for the record i fucking hate glen beck.



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 4,2011 5:29pm
FuckIsMySignature said[orig][quote]
:(

i'm just having a conversation pam. i'm sorry you take it so personally.


You ridiculous boy, where on earth did you get anything out of that that I am upset, annoyed or even taking this personally? I was answering your question, I'm just not very succinct. I was giving you my perspective and was not being serious at the end...except for the beer part, I was serious about that. Now shut up, you know I love you ho.



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 4,2011 5:51pm
ITT: Pam puts words in peoples' mouths and bashes critical thinking



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 4,2011 5:53pm
What's sad is that I think she (and ShadowSD, based on the other thread) would be playing a different tune if there wasn't such a great "progressive" in the White House (He speaks so well!).

Remember Jessica Lynch? Pat Tillman? The CIA's fake Saddam-gay-sex vids??



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 4,2011 5:59pm
LOL, yeah...I did all those things.



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 4,2011 6:08pm
pam said[orig][quote]
So...a dozen people saying "I think he's probably dead" is your conclusive evidence that he's, what, been frozen in an ice cube for 10 years, passed on by Bush Jr and reserved for Barack Obama so he could one-up Donald Trump on fateful Sunday night?


pam said[orig][quote]
the majority of people who are conspiracy theorists will always say everything is fake. The loudest voices are not out for "truth", they are out to prove themselves right and feel like Guy fucking Fox in their mother's basement. It doesn't matter what evidence comes up, they'll find a reason to "debunk" it. It just goes on forever and ever and ever because there's nothing you can show someone that they can't make up a blog post about and cry FAKE.



- Assumption that all "conspiracy theorists" are just ignorant (right wing) political partisans who think this is a cheap Obama trick: Check

- Assumption that questioning the current hoax means we claim to know the full/real story: Check

- Assumption that posting contrary quotes/evidence means we have full-faith in that evidence: Check

- Assumption that those who believe one "conspiracy theory" must believe anything that can be labeled as a "conspiracy theory": Check

- Assumption that skepticism about factual events is based on political bias/axe to grind: Check

- Assumption that "conspiracy theorists" are a monolithic, single-minded mass: Check

- Assumption that "evidence" offered by government cannot/should not be debunked: Check

- Assumption that skepticism equates to self-aggrandizement: Check



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 4,2011 6:15pm
ITT: everyone needs a tall frosty beer.



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 4,2011 6:15pm
Splitting hairs and mincing words while ignoring the rest of what I said: check.

Working up a cum lather because I don't believe everything you do: check.

Wasting time trying to bait someone into an argument: check.

Have fun cupcake...I don't care.



toggletoggle post by nekronautnli at May 4,2011 6:16pm



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 4,2011 6:22pm
I don't disbelieve everything our government tells us. I just have lack of faith in how they do it, given how compartmentalized everything is. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

The main reason why I started thinking "outside of the perceived box" per se is because I'm a huge fan of history. It is NOT uncommon for governments to lie to the populace. Given the amount of funds our government receives for defense and military spending, it should be evident why our country is crumbling. This has nothing to do with republicans and/or democrats. I love the USA and the basis of what this country was founded on. But this ain't the US no more, nigga. I mean NIGGA PLZ WTF K CUPCAKE TIME IM HUNGRY



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 4,2011 6:27pm
pam said[orig][quote]
Splitting hairs and mincing words while ignoring the rest of what I said: check.


Haha, sorry, I forgot to mention: Transparent ad hominem attacks (living in Mom's basement, constant masturbation/semen references): Check

Meanwhile, you ignored the interview article (Pieczenik) I posted, instead claiming that I was obviously just accusing Obama of trying to obscure the birth certificate controversy, didn't respond in regards to the statements of Benazir Bhutto(a true martyr for democracy), ignored the references to other transparent Pentagon psy-ops like the Jessica Lynch "rescue" and "friendly fire" murder of Pat Tillman, and just plain generally chose to avoid anything of substance in favor of a faith-based approach to national security matters.

It's fine that you don't even want to get into this discussion, but by posting stupid, ignorant shit in your loud proclamations of indifference, you're bound to occasionally look, well, stupid and ignorant. I'm not trying to bait you into anything and I don't care if you believe what I believe, it's just that the arguments you've posted in this thread are worthless. If you're so blase about the topic and convinced that all "conspiracy theorists" are just a bunch of basement-dwelling cumstains, why even bother with poorly reasoned 3rd grade insults?



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 4,2011 6:29pm
So, ya know, accusing me of splitting hairs when you're more concerned with describing the jizm of people you disagree with than the substance of the thread is kind of pointless... Especially since the "hairs" I'm splitting are pretty much your entire contribution.



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 4,2011 6:40pm
And I have never said "Aril you huge idiot, everything you say is ridiculous". At least not to your face. Do I need point out that I'm kidding here since RTTP always takes everything I say seriously lately?

I definitely have said every time this comes up that I am FOR questioning everything, but that my point was blindly believing everything a blogger that even conspiracy theorists seem to think is a loon says is just as sheepish as believing everything CNN says and that all talking heads have a self-interest to look after just like everyone they claim to be against.

But as usual it seems that because I think gay people deserve rights and like my uterus to be mine to control that that means I don't know anything, believe everything Obama says and think everyone on this board is a wacko. I've never said a thing in a political thread that didn't end in someone putting "liberal" or "progressive" in quotations and some asshole telling me how I think or doing something so hilarious as to make a list of assumptions of my assumptions. It's amusingly hypocritical and predictable.

But I'm happy to oblige everyone's OBVIOUSLY CORRECT views on how I think. Can Headbanging Man please let me know how I feel on the topic of potential military response to Pakistan because CNN hasn't told me yet and I'd really like to know.




toggletoggle post by pam   at May 4,2011 6:42pm
hahaha look how fucking mad you are. I'm sorry, everything I say will now be free of vulgarity, I forgot I'm on a proper board of gentleman who'd never speak of semen ever.



toggletoggle post by Doomkid   at May 4,2011 7:00pm
arilliusbm said[orig][quote]
I don't disbelieve everything our government tells us. I just have lack of faith in how they do it, given how compartmentalized everything is. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.


I'm not going to fuck with the rest of this thread since I missed so much, but Aril is definitely correct in this. Check the Frontline/Washington Post reporting:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/are-we-safer/



toggletoggle post by Pervez Musharraf at May 4,2011 7:28pm
Benazir Bhutto was a hot piece of ass!



toggletoggle post by Big bag of assorted nigger parts at May 4,2011 7:33pm



toggletoggle post by Big bag of assorted nigger parts at May 4,2011 7:34pm
^ I'm a dope and don't know how to embed vids. In the vid above, The (*ahem*) "people" of Roxbury discuss the death of OBL.



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 4,2011 7:39pm
"He did what it took Bush 11 years to do"

Yessss



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 4,2011 7:39pm
pam said[orig][quote]
And I have never said "Aril you huge idiot, everything you say is ridiculous". At least not to your face. Do I need point out that I'm kidding here since RTTP always takes everything I say seriously lately?



Only discussing this at Amon Amarth is real



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 4,2011 7:40pm



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 4,2011 7:41pm
arilliusbm said[orig][quote]
pam said[orig][quote]
And I have never said "Aril you huge idiot, everything you say is ridiculous". At least not to your face. Do I need point out that I'm kidding here since RTTP always takes everything I say seriously lately?



Only discussing this at Amon Amarth is real


I think it would be more enjoyable to discuss the merits of killing everyone in Roxbury.



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 5,2011 4:14pm
pam said[orig][quote]
I definitely have said every time this comes up that I am FOR questioning everything, but that my point was blindly believing everything a blogger that even conspiracy theorists seem to think is a loon says is just as sheepish as believing everything CNN says and that all talking heads have a self-interest to look after just like everyone they claim to be against.

But as usual it seems that because I think gay people deserve rights and like my uterus to be mine to control that that means I don't know anything, believe everything Obama says and think everyone on this board is a wacko. I've never said a thing in a political thread that didn't end in someone putting "liberal" or "progressive" in quotations and some asshole telling me how I think or doing something so hilarious as to make a list of assumptions of my assumptions. It's amusingly hypocritical and predictable.


Just wanted to check what words were put in my mouth while I was gone... Interesting, but not quite!



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 5,2011 4:21pm
pam said[orig][quote]
hahaha look how fucking mad you are. I'm sorry, everything I say will now be free of vulgarity, I forgot I'm on a proper board of gentleman who'd never speak of semen ever.


I'm not mad, it's a topic I discuss with a certain amount of seriousness; I couldn't care less about vulgarity, but when the best you can come up with is repeated references to cum, obviously you're not choosing to bring intellect to the table. You chose pointless flaming in this thread, I chose to stick to the issues, even if I had to frame it as a response to senseless assumptions about my politics and fluid disposal methods.



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 5,2011 4:29pm
this was boring yesterday.



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 5,2011 4:30pm
Then why do you continue to respond? Maybe if you tell me how much I hate fags and accuse me of killing abortionists, you'll get somewhere.



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 5,2011 4:33pm
I like how you take broad statements and directly apply them to yourself so you have something to be offended about. You remind me of the bickering hens on my knitting forum.

I'm responding because you're talking to me and I wouldn't want to be impolite. That's generally what one does when spoken to.



toggletoggle post by ArrowHeadNLI at May 5,2011 4:39pm
ITT:

Pam and Aril and I need to go out for beers. This would be the conversation to end all conversations.



Headbanging man: COuld you concisely tell me where Pieczenik's actual case/evidence is? I admit, I just skimmed, but all I saw was a lot of "If anyone knows, this guy knows" followed by a "I took a class, and some general said 911 was a false flag attack" which, last I looked, is not very compelling evidence (unless you enjoy building a case on hearsay)



The problem is, once upon a time in history political leaders would mislead, control, and lie to it's people regarding foreign policy, wars, and many other things. So we created the media. But it became far, far too easy for government and big business to control and manipulate the media. So we brought the media TO the PEOPLE. Gave them cells, cameras, blogs, internet, and ways of communicating news, information, etc... faster and further than ANY government or business can control.

This was GOOD for the people who, historically, have been lied to and misled by their governments.

There's a catch, though, and it's a DOOZY:

Throughout history, there have also been a lot of RETARDS, WHACKJOBS, NUTCASES, and misinformed IDIOTS with a flair for the fictional and dramatic. And historically we've protected the people from these idiots by keeping them out of the media. You'd often see these people depicted in films as some tard in a foil hat with a sandwichboad sign on the side of the road. (No, it's not Rorschach). And when we put the media in the people's hands, we also but the media in THOSE people's hands as well.


You can't trust everything, but you can't blindly follow or believe anything either.

MANY times on this site, I've gotten into arguments with people or something where I'll try to take on a different perspective, and view things from a side no-one else is bothering to. I've learned that every single thing we read, even the cold hard facts, can be delivered, twisted, argues, or misconstrued in a huge variety of ways.

Especially nowadays, when even the "mainstream" media outlets are suddenly filled with an abundance of freelance bloggers and amateurs, while editing and fact checking (or even fucking SPELL checking) seem to be at an all time low. There's no one at the gate anymore, which means you can't trust ANYONE anymore.



But that doesn't mean everything is a LIE. Some things are true, and just being spun in a way that benefits the most. And that's the stuff you REALLY gotta look out for.




toggletoggle post by pam   at May 5,2011 4:44pm edited May 5,2011 4:47pm
ArrowHeadNLI said[orig][quote]


I admit, I just skimmed, but all I saw was a lot of "If anyone knows, this guy knows" followed by a "I took a class, and some general said 911 was a false flag attack" which, last I looked, is not very compelling evidence (unless you enjoy building a case on hearsay)

You can't trust everything, but you can't blindly follow or believe anything either.

Especially nowadays, when even the "mainstream" media outlets are suddenly filled with an abundance of freelance bloggers and amateurs, while editing and fact checking (or even fucking SPELL checking) seem to be at an all time low. There's no one at the gate anymore, which means you can't trust ANYONE anymore.

But that doesn't mean everything is a LIE. Some things are true, and just being spun in a way that benefits the most. And that's the stuff you REALLY gotta look out for.



This is pretty much exactly what I was trying to say.

And I try not to talk about things that piss me off while I'm merrymaking but I'm always happy to have a beer with Aril.



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 5,2011 4:50pm
It's your call, I don't think those etiquette rules hold so steady when it comes to voluntary participation in online discussions. If it's boring, I think it's generally considered fair game to leave it be...

If you insist on responding (I'll be here waiting for more info debunking the propaganda "death" of OBL)... To take a short example, obviously you WERE referring to me when you claimed that because you support gay rights and reproductive freedom, people put assumptions in your mouth and accuse you of not knowing anything, and (lord forbid!) put the word "progressive" in quotes. I'd say the assumptions I listed were quite evident in your typing, but I would be quite curious to know where gay rights, abortion, or your general state of knowledge came up previously in this thread... Cause I'm not seeing it anywhere. And I'd likewise be curious what relevance to any of this is the fact that I don't consider Barack O-bomb-er to be "progressive" enough to shed the quotation marks.

If you'd like to conjure up things that weren't even mentioned in this thread and take direct personal offense at them, I suppose that is your prerogative, it just won't go very far towards proving your central point: "You all worship the cumstains on Alex Jones' cumstains, you stupid little cumstains, leave my President alone!".



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 5,2011 4:55pm
tl;dr



toggletoggle post by ArrowHeadNLI at May 5,2011 4:57pm
"You all worship the cumstains on Alex Jones' cumstains, you stupid little cumstains, leave my President alone!".


That's not Pam's point. There's only one person here that even gets into the AJ type shit, and that's Aril. And I'm pretty sure 90% of the time he's actually laughing WITH us.

I think her actual point is that you're a tool. I could be wrong, though.



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 5,2011 4:58pm
No that's pretty much it.



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 5,2011 5:01pm
pam said[orig][quote]
tl;dr


what does this mean? i keep seeing it randomly.



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 5,2011 5:08pm
too long, didn't read.



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 5,2011 5:09pm
oh haha. good to know.



toggletoggle post by ArrowHeadNLI at May 5,2011 5:16pm
FuckIsMySignature said[orig][quote]
pam said[orig][quote]
tl;dr


what does this mean? i keep seeing it randomly.



It means "talk later, drunk rightnow"




toggletoggle post by pam   at May 5,2011 5:20pm
Cum reference count in this thread
me: 2
Headbanging Man: 8



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 5,2011 5:23pm
BEER TONITE



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 5,2011 5:25pm
yessssss



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 5,2011 5:27pm
PS: Alex Jones is a very smart man.. he memorizes EVERY little fact and detail. I don't like how he jumps the gun and don't believe half of his theories. A number of them are true, but he overexaggerates so many things. The biggest LOL I get is how the NWO is luciferion. Get that shut outta here guy.



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 5,2011 5:28pm
Shut = Shit. Driving to Worcester and texting while itchingpoison ivy



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 5,2011 5:31pm
oh and Alex Jones is Illuminati



toggletoggle post by ArrowHeadNLI at May 5,2011 5:32pm
arilliusbm said[orig][quote]
PS: Alex Jones is a very smart man.. he memorizes EVERY little fact and detail.


Easy to do with google and a teleprompter. But like I said, his actual research leaves a bit to be desired.

Gimme an hour on google, and a day to make a video, and I'll explain to you how the apocalypse is real, and the six flags old guy is actually the antichrist with cotton candy being the mark of the beast.

Anyone can sit around and make connections. That's NOT journalism. It's theorizing.



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 5,2011 5:34pm
arilliusbm said[orig][quote]
Shut = Shit. Driving to Worcester and texting while itchingpoison ivy


only driving while shaving pubes is real



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 5,2011 5:34pm
arilliusbm said[orig][quote]
Shut = Shit. Driving to Worcester and texting while itchingpoison ivy


only endangering the lives of others to post on rttp is real.



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 5,2011 5:35pm
ahahahaaa



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 5,2011 5:37pm
fuck other people



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 5,2011 5:38pm



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 5,2011 5:39pm
no one fucks you like you fuck yourself

...shit, does that count as a semen reference?



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 5,2011 6:09pm
ArrowHeadNLI said[orig][quote]


- I don't think anyone like Steve Pieczenik is offering incontrovertible proof of everything. I think he offers some very compelling information that IS undoubtedly hearsay, but we're talking about journalism, not a court case. The use of unnamed sources in modern journalism has been completely perverted, but the kind that Pieczenik (granting him status as a reporter) is discussing is what unnamed sourcing was invented for: to allow information to be revealed without subjecting the whistleblowers to the possible retaliation of their employers/superiors.

I don't have any particular faith in him as a source over any other, however, the insider information he alleges dovetails neatly with a lot of the other slim bits of info out there, in re: Osama's long-past death. I find Benazir Bhutto far more compelling than anyone in the current White House, and the more I think about it, unless Musharraf mispoke, I would say his statement on the matter was a way of "announcing" OBL's death without actually crossing his US paymasters. Again, nothing incontrovertible, but if the WH/Pentagon cannot clarify these contradictions, they remain a point to question. Merely saying "Shut up, we got him" is not sufficient to "debunk" serious questions.

I don't KNOW that Bin Laden has been dead for 9 years, though I do believe it strongly enough to critically doubt the current WH/Pentagon story. Being called a stupid cunt who has irrational faith in Alex Jones (I don't), or labeled a "deather" (as the mainstream media is attempting now to do) isn't really sufficient to change my mind.

- I agree and disagree about the media and the use of gatekeepers. It's true that the internet in general has offered self-publishing and networking opportunities for the completely inept, insane, and intellectually worthless. That said, I'm not sure I agree that the same really has been applied to the mainstream media; on the one hand, yes, CNN has pathetically devolved to the point of reading viewer Tweets on the air... On the other hand, the major TV/radio/print news IS now in 5 sets of corporate hands, and even with technological expansion, editorial control is the most crucial gate, and it still shuts quite easily on controversial issues. The internet gives someone like Alex Jones a vastly expanded audience from what he would have had 20 years ago, but in some ways I feel the mainstream dialogue is more restrictive than ever.

I could get into a few examples, it's quite a massive subject though; maybe the JFK assassination would still serve as a legitimate example though. I find it an increasingly useful event in reference to the way the executive branch and its corporate partners work together covertly. Despite the fact that the general public had rejected the lone-assassin theory entirely by the end of the 1970's, when the subject comes up in current stories, you will still see, in ANY mainstream source, discussion of "assassin Lee Harvey Oswald", for example. These stories even stick to the Warren Commission scenario (3 shots, no conspiracy), even though this fiction was refuted in 1979 by an official congressional body (House Select Committee On Assassinations). Likewise, when Dr. Malcolm Perry died 2 years ago, his obituary in many publications tried to sanitize his testimony to the Warren Commission, focusing on an out-of-context quote about JFK's neck wound to sanitize his testimony away from "conspiracy theory". At least the NYT was good enough to correct itself (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/08/us/08perry.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper) though they left in the bit about how he kept quiet after the WC report because he "regretted contributing, however inadvertently, to the various conspiracy theories"; strangely they don't mention the possibility that he might have been scared for his life, in light of the treatment of other witnesses against the WC. These are small examples, but I would say they're part of a very large pattern in which editorial control ensures that the "official" story prevails, regardless of how much evidence there may be to the contrary.

I won't even get into actual CIA presence in the media, but the fact that the Agency came under some (very limited) congressional scrutiny about this in the 1970's doesn't preclude these type of psy-ops continuing to this day.

- There ARE RETARDS, WHACKJOBS, NUTCASES, and IDIOTS out there, and some of them have their own blogs or news sites. However, it's also useful to remember that the powers that be frequently use such characterizations to discredit legitimate critics, as well as actual flakes. I'd rather deal with the issues on their merits, and question my sources, but not rule them out without good reason. Everyone from Noam Chomsky to Ron Paul (and far beyond on both sides of the political spectrum) has been labeled a whackjob or "conspiracy theorist" by someone (or more frequently, someones) merely wishing to discredit their valid political criticisms. The only real way to deal with this, in my eyes, is to deal with every source and every issue on its own merits. It's far too easy and lazy to simply take other people's words as to who are the RWNIs...

- In addition to morons and crazies, there are liars. Not everything in the news media is a lie, however my limited studying of the past 60-70 years or US history has shown me that ALMOST everything related to US foreign policy/national security/military/intelligence matters IS a lie. Not just spun and manipulated, but a lie. There are too many events to even begin to capture them all, but suffice it to say, as sources go, I have a very strong opinion about the military, and the CIA-Wall St. complex (and their various front men in the Oval Office). The executive branch has EARNED my incredulity, it's not merely a matter of faith on my part. Earlier I mentioned Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch; those are just 2 of a handful of propaganda psy-ops the Pentagon has pulled on the American (and global) public in the past decade; looking back to Bosnia, Gulf War I, Iran-Contra, death squads in Guatamala, Cambodia, Indonesia, Vietnam, the Gulf Of Tonkin, Pearly Harbor... We're just talking about a legacy of utter dishonesty in the name of military empire. The burden of proof is simply not on the skeptic when it comes to official Pentagon or CIA pronouncements.

- And finally, spin and manipulation of actual events is dangerous, but I do think the "Big Lie" is much more destructive than near lies; even if he was talking about the Jews, Hitler of course used this tactic himself (under the brilliant guidance of Goebbels):

All this was inspired by the principle--which is quite true within itself--that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying.

At least we learn on a social level to deal with spin and manipulation; unfortunately our culture and educational system do not push people to question the great "factual" premises of our world, thus the "impudence to distort the truth so infamously" remains a valuable tactic for authoritarians.



toggletoggle post by ArrowHeadNLI at May 5,2011 6:15pm
Big fucking tap dance, weaving a.d.d. useless bullshit.


Back to the matter at hand, I repeat my original question:

"COuld you concisely tell me where Pieczenik's actual case/evidence is?"

Look up 'concisely' if you need to.

I don't give two shit about your view on JFK or Fraggle Rock. Let's get back to your whole belief that Osama's death is a hoax.





toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 5,2011 6:22pm
Great reading comprehension...

"I don't think anyone like Steve Pieczenik is offering incontrovertible proof of everything."

"I don't KNOW that Bin Laden has been dead for 9 years, though I do believe it strongly enough to critically doubt the current WH/Pentagon story. Being called a stupid cunt who has irrational faith in Alex Jones (I don't), or labeled a "deather" (as the mainstream media is attempting now to do) isn't really sufficient to change my mind. "

You asked 1 question, but followed it up with a rather sappy lecture about how sometimes it's better just to take the government at its word. If you wanted a simple response, you could have avoided opening up a different can of worms entirely.



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 5,2011 6:23pm
tl;dr



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 5,2011 6:25pm
FuckIsMySignature said[orig][quote]
tl;dr


That seems to be the general consensus from people who are sick of having people point out the rat shit in their spoon-fed propaganda, and just want to swallow already.



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 5,2011 6:26pm
just put some sugar on that rat shit. its all good.



toggletoggle post by ArrowHeadNLI at May 5,2011 6:26pm
Headbanging_Man said[orig][quote]
Great reading comprehension...


You asked 1 question, but followed it up with a rather sappy lecture about how sometimes it's better just to take the government at its word. .


Idiot, you really got that from what I said? The comprehension problem is NOT mine.

My sappy lecture was that easy access to media has given forum to idiots like AJ. I never, in ANY way, implied you should take the government at it's word. In fact, I said quite the opposite of that. You FAILED.


Again. WHAT is his evidence. I asked a simple question. You've danced around it, over and over, but so far I've seen nothing beyond "a general said it during a training session". That's pretty non-damning stuff right there. Shitty testimony, shitty witness, shitty journalism. THIS is why it's not on the front page of major news outlets, NOT due to control by the NWO.


So AGAIN: What is his evidence?



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 5,2011 6:27pm
As I said, he's offering hearsay evidence that's potentially controvertible. I didn't say he had a great case.



toggletoggle post by ArrowHeadNLI at May 5,2011 6:28pm
Headbanging_Man said[orig][quote]
FuckIsMySignature said[orig][quote]
tl;dr


That seems to be the general consensus from people who are sick of having people point out the rat shit in their spoon-fed propaganda, and just want to swallow already.



Why do conspiracy nuts always babble in run on sentences and excessive adjectives?




toggletoggle post by ArrowHeadNLI at May 5,2011 6:29pm
Headbanging_Man said[orig][quote]
As I said, he's offering hearsay evidence that's potentially controvertible. I didn't say he had a great case.


But it was your own argument. You bring up evidence to support your own argument, then say it's hearsay and controvertible?

Alex J got NUTHIN on you, man.



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 5,2011 6:29pm
As to what I got from your "lecture", a bunch of condescending shit; you did say to question everything, but for some reason seem not to want to apply that to this week's propaganda blitz. What is so compelling about Obama's hearsay evidence that it overrides that of 2 Pakistani heads of state?



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 5,2011 6:32pm
I didn't bring it up as evidence or say I had an argument. I don't believe Osama died a few days ago. However that's not what I was arguing, I merely offered that article as a piece of interest, and I find it at least worth consideration. I never said it was proof of anything.

The only thing I'm really arguing in this thread is that lumping "conspiracy theories" and "conspiracy theorists" into a mass and conjuring up political profiles for them is an anti-intellectual exercise in shutting off discussion of issues on their merits.



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 5,2011 6:34pm
Especially in light of the fact that conspiracy is a fact of our political and social life... The entire idea of organized crime is predicated on the fact that some people earn their daily living through participation in criminal conspiracy



toggletoggle post by ArrowHeadNLI at May 5,2011 6:35pm
Headbanging_Man said[orig][quote]
As to what I got from your "lecture", a bunch of condescending shit; you did say to question everything, but for some reason seem not to want to apply that to this week's propaganda blitz. What is so compelling about Obama's hearsay evidence that it overrides that of 2 Pakistani heads of state?




My opinion was condescending? And said to trust government?

Why would I argue about you any further, when you can't fucking read.


Let me explain condescending:

You're a fucking dipshit.

THAT is condescending.


As for the rest, I made a statement to Pam and Jim about beer. bunch of space. Asked you a question. Bunch of space. Made my own separate commentary unrelated to you about my thought on the Alex J thing.

Yet twice now you've felt that 1) it was directed at you and 2) have completely misread and reinterpreted every word I've said.




toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 5,2011 6:37pm
lol you guys should have a pitfight to resolve this.



toggletoggle post by ArrowHeadNLI at May 5,2011 6:41pm
FuckIsMySignature said[orig][quote]
lol you guys should have a pitfight to resolve this.


I wouldn't waste my time. If you can't use your brain to make a point, it's useless.



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 5,2011 6:44pm edited May 5,2011 6:45pm
I see the spacing, so I see now it wasn't directed at me... Does that preclude me from responding? A bunch of meaningless bromides about why the media exists and the fact that technology has opened the door to more opinions does come across as condescending to anyone past the 8th grade ("Once upon a time in history", come on!), and it seems directed, if anything at saying that sometimes the government lies, but sometimes it should be trusted. The implication was that it's OK to ask questions, but not WHACKJOB questions, with an underlying assumption that not swallowing the OBL death narrative equated to WHACKJOB questions. Yet if these questions are so whackjob, why not address them individually on their merits and prove it to be so?



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 5,2011 7:12pm
FuckIsMySignature said[orig][quote]
tl;dr


Excellent usage! A+



toggletoggle post by FuckIsMySignature at May 5,2011 7:23pm
yay!!



toggletoggle post by brian_dc  at May 5,2011 8:36pm
Headbanging_Man said[orig][quote]
FuckIsMySignature said[orig][quote]
tl;dr


That seems to be the general consensus from people who are sick of having people point out the rat shit in their spoon-fed propaganda, and just want to swallow already.


tl;dr



toggletoggle post by Doomkid   at May 5,2011 8:38pm
brian_dc said[orig][quote]
Headbanging_Man said[orig][quote]
FuckIsMySignature said[orig][quote]
tl;dr


That seems to be the general consensus from people who are sick of having people point out the rat shit in their spoon-fed propaganda, and just want to swallow already.


tl;dr


tl;dr



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 5,2011 8:52pm
I'm still waiting to find out how we're supposed to know if a particular question is whackjob or not. I mean, obviously Arrowhead's superior system of questioning the government, EXCEPT when it's telling the truth is the way to go, but I can't seem to shake this habit of suspecting ALL sources at ALL times. What ever can I do?

I'm also curious what I can do to curb my terrible run-on sentence habits... Clearly 2 adjectives at a time is far too many for any reasonable person to read, but how many words over the limit were my 31???



toggletoggle post by ArrowHeadNLI at May 5,2011 9:36pm
Headbanging_Man said[orig][quote]
I'm still waiting to find out how we're supposed to know if a particular question is whackjob or not.



You really just don't get what I've said.

or

tl;dr



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 5,2011 9:51pm
questioning the government, EXCEPT when it's telling the truth is the way to go



I know exactly what you said, and this was the crux of it, the implication being that in THIS INSTANCE the government is telling the truth, pre-empting the need for questions. How one is even supposed to put a value on truth WITHOUT FIRST asking questions is what you've failed to explain.



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 5,2011 10:07pm
Seriously, if you're even remotely capable of intelligent discussion, surely you can give me 2 or 3 reasons why I, or anyone, should rely on the government's account of OBL's death. I've read your vague rambling pontifications about how the mass media and technology has watered down credibility, now why don't you actually address the subject of this thread? If you'd rather just take the official answer with a bit of faith, of course that's your prerogative, but you haven't even bothered to discuss the actual topic of this thread to that degree. I don't doubt you'd just rather flame me than convince me of anything, but you are depriving yourself of an opportunity to act/come across like an adult by refusing to even address the inconsistencies in the government's story.



toggletoggle post by ArrowHeadNLI at May 5,2011 10:55pm
You know I've made more than one post, right?

I think I've pretty clearly stated my opinion. And yes, 11 historic documentations at people GUESSING Osama was dead, combined with a guy with a name and position I've never heard of who "oughta know" saying he heard it from a general addressing his class who said 911 was a false flag attack, does not make me suspicious.

I believe in Occam's razor. It took 10 years to find him because we were looking in the wrong country. We went in and took him out, and disposed of the remains. Looking at it logically, it makes sense.

Were we justified in shooting? Did he really resist? I don't know. I know if they're hiding something with the body, it has more to do with these two questions than any theories you may have put forth.






toggletoggle post by brian_dc  at May 5,2011 10:57pm
I'm more interested in the fact that I resolved a bigger mystery:

Q: Who ate all the pies?


A: Who ate all the pies?
Who ate all the pies?
You fat bastard
You fat bastard
You ate all the pies.



toggletoggle post by Alx_Casket  at May 5,2011 11:24pm



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 6,2011 8:58am
This thread brings me great lulz.



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 6,2011 9:16am
Occam's Razor is what they want you to believe in situations that carry political undertones.



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 6,2011 9:37am



toggletoggle post by brian_dc  at May 6,2011 9:48am
pam said[orig][quote]



to be fair, none of the things Aril or Headbanging_Man come within 100 miles of the idiocy of this.

I think the point to take from these guys is that it is reasonable to doubt the accepted stories. There are unknowns. The problem is that when there are holes in a story, people are far too willing to fill the holes with whatever garbage just happens to be pouring out of their faces at a given moment.

That should be avoided as much as taking anything at face value.



toggletoggle post by Alx_Casket  at May 6,2011 10:09am


Only Mehrunes' Razor is real.



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 6,2011 10:22am
A good (recent) example that people still talk about was the xmas day 'underwear bomber'.
They made a big deal out of it when it happened, and it happened right before a bunch of airports got contracts to have the zero-point scanners installed. ($$$$$$)
there were eyewitnesses at the airport in Amsterdam that said the 'bomber' was seen with a men in suits prior to boarding the plan. The men told the desk to let him on the plane and showed some credentials. Someone on the plane was taping the small fire, but it was confiscated after the flight. there are some other strange stories surrounding that incident that the MSM failed to cover.
What I said (mind you im on a phone so I can't type much) was all taken from an interview with the eyewitnesses... Actual sources. Can't cite shit right now



toggletoggle post by brian_dc  at May 6,2011 10:26am
Al Qaeda released a statement confirming Bin Laden's death:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/07/world/as...qaeda.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss



toggletoggle post by ark at May 6,2011 10:37am
Yeah, we have varying degrees of lack of faith in official government stories in this thread, the point is the government is totally capable of deceiving the public, and has in the past to a large degree. Either way, whether or not OBL did actually die on May 4, 2011, it's sickening to see another "American victory" ripple effect when in fact it's the complete opposite, and the MSM and every regular fucking Joe and Jose go around saying "will such and such be different now that Osama is dead?" because nobody understands the nature of ideological warfare, and everybody gets swept up in the tide of empty patriotism once again.

I'm a "truther" mainly because many personal gains were to be had by certain parties following the events in 2001, on top of multiple false flag operations in the past which have been proven true. I have never listened to or watched an Alex Jones video and I don't read ATS, infowars, etc.



toggletoggle post by Yeti at May 6,2011 10:39am
i am so fucking sick of hearing about Bin Laden. the "patriotic" fervor is stomach turning. fuck this country, and fuck everyone in it.



toggletoggle post by ark at May 6,2011 10:40am
Also that politicians will do absolutely anything to get re-elected. Political timing is always connected to coincidence.



toggletoggle post by pam   at May 6,2011 3:14pm
Yeti said[orig][quote]
i am so fucking sick of hearing about Bin Laden. the "patriotic" fervor is stomach turning. fuck this country, and fuck everyone in it.


I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 6,2011 6:25pm
I'm more open to the possibility that OBL died this week, in light of the few reports coming out of Pakistan (namely from police who followed up the raid), it's still a super fucking fishy situation though. I am waiting for explanations about who actually was aware of his presence, if he kept a dialysis machine in the compound, why he wasn't able to bring a camcorder, etc. Obviously most every detail given out about the raid was dishonest, but if the general gist is true, I am inclined to think that instead of literally keeping OBL on ice, CIA was only metaphorically doing so, to have a real corpse when it was necessary to go in for the "victory". Believing they just found out about the spot in August 2010 requires a MAJOR leap of faith.

ArrowHeadNLI said[orig][quote]
I think I've pretty clearly stated my opinion. And yes, 11 historic documentations at people GUESSING Osama was dead, combined with a guy with a name and position I've never heard of who "oughta know" saying he heard it from a general addressing his class who said 911 was a false flag attack, does not make me suspicious.


See, that's not all that difficult. It was more than 11 people's "guesses", and there were other circumstantial issues that added a lot to the uncertainty. It included reports in newspapers in Pakistan, Egypt, and the New York Times, as well as two (current/former) heads of state of Pakistan. Not to mention the issues surrounding Tora Bora, and the question of OBL's kidney issues (the only remotely thought-provoking comment Pam made in this thread was that our perception of his sickness/dialysis is based generally on Western/US news sources, which is a fair point)... Then there are suspicious video tapes and the sudden switch to (also fakeable) audio only, from a man who supposedly still ran a billion-dollar terror network. So I think you're understating the case for his previous death, but I've already acknowledged several times that there was nothing in the way of rock-solid proof.

Occam's Razor applied in previous assumptions of OBL's death as well; neither hide nor hair from Bin Laden except from CIA/Pentagon sources using his alleged words for propagandic purposes for over 9 years, an assumption of advance kidney disease, the realpolitik of a man hiding in a poor country with a $25mill. bounty on his head...

Even if the previous reports of OBL's death were too insubstantial to give any credence, that's hardly an argument for accepting the WH/Pentagon at face value. It's fair enough if you think that the US military black ops groups are a decent independent custodian/tester of evidence like DNA, but there is more than enough reason for many of us to view any such "evidence" as inherently compromised (as would any functional court). Likewise, this entire operation was clearly cloaked under several levels of security classifications, so the idea that military and intelligence officials couldn't manage to lie in concert with each other suggests they don't even know their jobs.

I continue to reserve judgment, and I imagine it take months for a remotely clear picture to emerge. Some in the Pakistani military are denying it was OBL who died in the raid, but on the other hand the wife that is supposedly talking now is to me, so far the most credible witness in support of the WH/Pentagon story. I'm curious to see what becomes of her and the other on site witnesses, what information surfaces about OBL's protection for the last 6 years, and if the previous death leads can be traced to any particular source of disinformation.


I still think Steve Pieczenik's words are extraordinarily interesting; the most compelling part of that interview is not the second hand OBL/9/11 info, but the fact that he says he TAUGHT false-flag/stand-down techniques at the Army War College. These are the kind of "sources and methods" that the CIA has so jealously guarded against congressional or judicial scrutiny, and I imagine the Pentagon has likewise chosen to keep hidden such blatantly dishonest tactics, as they wouldn't exactly reflect well on the nation's top brass or the military in general.



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 6,2011 6:31pm
Counterpoint has had a bunch of GREAT pieces on this issue...

Unfortunately the writer here is a little bit questionable, but his brief analysis of some public Wikileaks releases certainly shows his basic point:

http://www.counterpunch.org/shamir05042011.html

Cross and Double Cross With Gitmo Files

US Knew Where Osama Was Since 2005

By ISRAEL SHAMIR

Shamir is definitely a suspicious figure though: http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/04/309818.html



toggletoggle post by Headbanging_Man at May 6,2011 6:41pm
"Hey, if you can’t show me something, maybe you don’t have it, especially since you are a chronic liar and in the cloak and dagger business. For most English-language trials since the disappearance of William Harrison in 1660, there has been the principle of no corpse, no murder, but here you actually have an open admission of murder, widely broadcast, but no corpse, which is tantamount to destruction of evidence, whatever it was.

So the CIA is basically saying to us, The dog ate my cadaver. Frankly, this farce was so crudely put together, the explanation so ridiculous, that our overlords must think most of us are morons, brainwashed as we are by cradle-to-grave propaganda delivered via print or pixels. I hate to think they might be right. "

A Cartoon Narrative

Bin Laden the Vindicator

By LINH DINH

http://www.counterpunch.org/dinh05042011.html



toggletoggle post by Alex Jones at May 9,2011 3:14pm
www.infowars.com/10-facts-that-prove-the-bin-laden-fable-is-a-contrived-hoax/




toggletoggle post by brian_dc  at May 9,2011 3:20pm
Alex Jones
do the truffle shuffle.



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 9,2011 3:23pm



toggletoggle post by BlessedOffalNLI at May 9,2011 3:26pm
pam%20nli said[orig][quote]
I just don't fucking care.



toggletoggle post by oscarct  at May 9,2011 3:30pm
BlessedOffalNLI said[orig][quote]
pam%20nli said[orig][quote]
I just don't fucking care.



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at May 9,2011 3:54pm
they be using this now to scare us with train travel this summer. Ultimately this just means mark richards is a terrorist.



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