i just bought a pair, and found that the slave pedal would extend much further down than the right when you push down to have the beater strike the bass drum. i tried adjusting this as much as i could using the drive shaft but i basically had to pull the pedal board all the way up to where it was making contact with the cam above it, and it still extends farther down that the right pedal.
as far as i can tell there are no other settings that i can adjust on the pedal to alter this more than what i was able to, so i decided to loosen the screws on the actual cam, which fastens the direct drive link to the actual drive shaft so i could lift it higher. now the screws wont tighen enough to hold it in place and i stripped one of them trying to get it tight enough.
anyone have this problem? i am seriously considering just returning them if they cant service it under warranty, but honestly i dont know that i want to keep them at all since i will probably just have the same issue with the slave pedal if they replace them for me.
i know slave pedals on a double pedal kit are never the same as using two individual bass drums, but i just dont have room or transportation for 2 bass drums so that is most definitely not an option for me at this time.
Drummer that I used to play with had an Axis pedal for all of a week. Had the same sort of issue. I honestly think they're not worth it.
DW 9000 series > anything
roughly the same price, too. I think.
post by barbelo at Mar 25,2011 10:17am
I don't think I could service an axis over text. She'd require some personal attention :P
But I'd agree with Brian, the DW9000 series is much more user-friendly (and durable, I'd add). I own both axis and dw double pedals and the latter is the selection both for shows and recording.
ugh, i know so many people that swear by axis, but i honestly couldnt find another way to fix my issue except for removing the "do not remove" sticker so i could adjust the screws myself, seeing as how they set that level at the factory and assume you'll never need to change it.
i removed the sticker anyway figuring it was the only possibility left, and now i see why they say do no remove. cuz you cant fucking tighten them back physically with your hand without the screws loosing its grip and the whole pedal falls down completely. i stripped the screw just trying to get it tight enough.
the DW9000 is chain drive, but my understanding is that it's a whole different ballgame than what you're probably used to from a chaindrive. If you're looking for something different and can try one, I'd just recommend giving it a shot to see how it feels. Never hurts to try.
i hear that, been considering the 9000s for a while, loved my 7000s i had years back. but ive also heard that 9000s fall apart like crazy, you havent had this issue?
but my father does and he swears by them. I watched my former drummer's Axis pedal disintegrate and then see how his playing improved once getting the 9000s.
Another anecdote. He was tracking the Mast stuff and was having problems with his shitty Yamaha pedals, studio pointed out they had 9000s just sitting around. Suddenly, homeboy could play again.
Everything I'm basing this on is not at all based on any 'being a drummer' experience. Full disclosure and what not.
ah ok, fair enough. i might try a pair of 9000s under the possibility of return. to be honest i was looking into the axis mainly to take advantage of the ekit trigger system. but now i realize i wont even be able to use them until ive spent months re-learning my kick technique.
try the speed cobra. out of the box the beaters where back far enough to slap me in the top of my feet and the pedals went way to far down to the floor for my liking. took all of 5 minutes to raise the footboard and adjust the beaters. thing is about as equal as it gets left to right. only took a few extra minutes to dial in the left pedal so that the springs where exactly at the same tension. i think this pedal is smooth and fast like a 9000 or axis but with more power.
grab one from GC. you have 30 days to fuck with it. it's under $400
try out the 9000 vs the speed cobra. i think you'll like the speed cobra more than the 9000 cause it has a longer footboard like the axis or trick. the demon drive and 9000 have a short footboard. but i guess you can change the pivot point on the demon drive. i realize neither of my posts have anythng to do with axis pedals.
Alex, before Jimboar chimes in the ekits are cool, but you WILL have to adapt your foot technique to the Axis pedals, and you do lose impact strength with these pedals. Of course it depends on the beaters you use. I would go with Josh's suggestion and spring for the Speed Cobras.
Alex, before Jimboar chimes in the ekits are cool, but you WILL have to adapt your foot technique to the Axis pedals, and you do lose impact strength with these pedals. Of course it depends on the beaters you use. I would go with Josh's suggestion and spring for the Speed Cobras.
I've swtiched from Axis longboards back to OLD iron cobras. I always loved the cobras feel and power, but I was suckered in by the speed and ease of the Axis pedals...turns out the axis pedals are fragile, finicky, and just not worth the hassle IMHO.
Truth is, the cobras give me a much more powerful stroke, and since I'm pretty vehemently anti-trigger, the increase in volume and increase in reliability made the switch back a no-brainer. My technique needs to improve a bit, but that's my problem to deal with.
Tim, do you bury your beater into the bass drum? thats the main reason i was considering against ekits.
the main reason i have been thinking about using triggers as of late is the fact that there are some parts with Despoilment where i have to use 32nd notes, and you pretty much cant hear it live, so i figure what the hell is the point in bothering if you cant hear it anyway
Pretty sure I'm just gonna try to exchange my axis pedals for the speed cobras, and keep my trick pedals as a back up. I felt like I was trying too hard to slam the bass drum with the axis pedals
I'm totally with brodown. I'm "anti-trigger" and the AXIS pedals are specifically made for triggering and speed, nothing else. Alex, you're right that 32nd notes really aren't audible without triggers live, I think it would be if BOTH sides of the kick were mic'd, which usually doesn't happen. 32nd notes are really the only reason to use triggers IMHO, depending on how fast they are I would just play 16ths live just to make it sound good. I would rather strive to make my 32nd notes more audible than submit to triggers and change my technique.
SO... Since I'm playing an electronic kit and my problem is noise from the beater being WAY TOO LOUD for my neighbors, do you guys think Axis is just the right thing for me? I'm NEVER tried a direct drive, this is all new to me. Currently using Powershifter Eliminators with the white cam.
damn, beater noise on an ekit are too loud for your neighbors?
I'd replace the neighbors.
Well, my kit is right in the corner on a support wall, and it's an alesis DM pad (real mylar head) so while there's not drum sound, the beater and head makes a HUGE racket. (also, my metal "surge" cymbals make an obnoxiously loud noise too - I've been using tama "silent tips" to compensate).
Basically it's the equivalent to me up here hammering away on something, combined with the actual stomping noise of my foot's impact. For the latter, I've been adding padding and absorption under the pedals, but the former is still bad.
My neighbors are actually the best I've had under me in 10+ years. That's why I'm killing myself to be considerate. This is the first people that HAVEN'T complained about noise, smell of POT, etc....
Yeah. I can't tell you how excited I was when the cop downstairs and his family moved out, and the new people moving in had a giant "converge" sticker on their car. And then the first time I walked by their door and smelled super skunky weed, I knew they were going to be better neighbors. So I don't wanna offend them.
im not really looking to use triggers to increase my speed, but most clubs suck at micing a kick drum and you just cant hear it, whats the point of putting myself through all that just so no one can hear it?
trick is coming out with this new laser trigger design that i was considering trying as well.
So, i as opposed to getting into a debate about the appropriate use of triggers, i'm going to go ahead an answer your question. You asked me this the other day, and I don't think you explained it as well then. So here goes:
The AXIS pedals have SOO many ways to make adjustments that aren't obvious at all. It took me almost 3 months to really understand what to change when i desire a certain effect. I believe the adjustment you're looking for is an "alan wrench" slot on the joint that connects the top of the left spring to the housing. This is NOT a tension adjustment, and at first glance it looks not like an adjustment, but just like a way to connect the spring to the housing. If you loosen that, while holding the left beater stationary, then adjust that foward or back you will notice that it changes exactly what i think you're talking about... if that's not it, come to my room tonight and get me from my drum practice and I'll take a look at it.
post by Alexecutioner at Mar 25,2011 1:09pm edited Mar 25,2011 3:19pm
It's more like 32nd note triplets for at least one of the songs I'm playing instead of straight 32nd notes. But in my opinion it would sound so incredibly slow if I did it at half speed.
My drummer works at the Natick GC, and he's a fucking wealth of knowledge about drum gear and won't try to sell you the most expensive thing there. Probably wouldn't hurt to stop by and try a few different ones out.
AND this bullshit about 32nds, 16ths, etc..... THEY'RE ALL THE SAME, DAMNIT!!
If we're playing a song, and the metranome says 100bpms, and you're doing 1/4 notes... then you're doing 400 notes a minute... but if you turn the metranome up to 200bpms, and you do 1/2 notes, then you're playing the EXACT SAME SPEED. it's all where you put the pulse/downbeat.
AND this bullshit about 32nds, 16ths, etc..... THEY'RE ALL THE SAME, DAMNIT!!
If we're playing a song, and the metranome says 100bpms, and you're doing 1/4 notes... then you're doing 400 notes a minute... but if you turn the metranome up to 200bpms, and you do 1/2 notes, then you're playing the EXACT SAME SPEED. it's all where you put the pulse/downbeat.
That's true in everything BUT metal, where every band/song seems to be the same friggin tempos anyway. 200bpm, and chugs on the low E (or b, for 7 stringers). Because it can be that generic, most musicians will refer to the breakdown of triplets, 8ths, 16th, 32s, etc... as subdivisions of a set speed, and not mathematical components that can be applied to other tempos (or other drums, even.)
AND this bullshit about 32nds, 16ths, etc..... THEY'RE ALL THE SAME, DAMNIT!!
If we're playing a song, and the metranome says 100bpms, and you're doing 1/4 notes... then you're doing 400 notes a minute... but if you turn the metranome up to 200bpms, and you do 1/2 notes, then you're playing the EXACT SAME SPEED. it's all where you put the pulse/downbeat.
That's true in everything BUT metal, where every band/song seems to be the same friggin tempos anyway. 200bpm, and chugs on the low E (or b, for 7 stringers). Because it can be that generic, most musicians will refer to the breakdown of triplets, 8ths, 16th, 32s, etc... as subdivisions of a set speed, and not mathematical components that can be applied to other tempos (or other drums, even.)
Semantics!!! you know what i'm saying is true... When talking about the speed of playing, you shouldn't just say 32nds, or 64ths, you should say 32nds@240bpm..... etc... please? *smooch*
AND this bullshit about 32nds, 16ths, etc..... THEY'RE ALL THE SAME, DAMNIT!!
If we're playing a song, and the metranome says 100bpms, and you're doing 1/4 notes... then you're doing 400 notes a minute... but if you turn the metranome up to 200bpms, and you do 1/2 notes, then you're playing the EXACT SAME SPEED. it's all where you put the pulse/downbeat.
i dont really know what tempo its at, since its all relative. lets just say its fast, roughly the fastest i can move the pedals while keeping up with the guitars, cutting it in half just wouldnt sound the same
jimbo, i've been having a hard time with these new pedals. i pretty much ended up stripping one of the screws and they are currently not playable. i have to see if i can get the entire thing replaced thru music 123 since its still within 45 days, OR get it serviced under warranty.
i'd really like to get a chance to talk to you about this tho, cuz i am considering just returning them all together
So, i as opposed to getting into a debate about the appropriate use of triggers, i'm going to go ahead an answer your question. You asked me this the other day, and I don't think you explained it as well then. So here goes:
The AXIS pedals have SOO many ways to make adjustments that aren't obvious at all. It took me almost 3 months to really understand what to change when i desire a certain effect. I believe the adjustment you're looking for is an "alan wrench" slot on the joint that connects the top of the left spring to the housing. This is NOT a tension adjustment, and at first glance it looks not like an adjustment, but just like a way to connect the spring to the housing. If you loosen that, while holding the left beater stationary, then adjust that foward or back you will notice that it changes exactly what i think you're talking about... if that's not it, come to my room tonight and get me from my drum practice and I'll take a look at it.
i wish i knew that before i fucked with something else and stripped the screw. the pedals are currently broken pretty much
For the record, people that say tiggers make you faster, or better, or are cheating, are idiots. Period. Trigger makes about as much difference in your playing as the mic the soundguy chooses to stick in your bass drum. At least with a trigger, YOU control this choice - not him.
A trigger doesn't effect your playing. It just effects the final sound. Cheating with a trigger, - IE using constant velocity to maintain an even kick sound, is NOT DIFFERENT than the soundman slathering compression on your acoustic kick to attain the same fucking result. Difference is, when the soundman fixes it you can play ignorant, and pretend there's nothing wrong with your technique. Whereas with a trigger, you ARE admitting your deficiencies by consciously compensating.
NOT tiggers. TRIGGERS. But Tiggers DO make you faster. I will not jam with a drummer who uses TIGGERS. Always ends up getting us into trouble and pissing off POOH.
Now drummers that replace every hit in the studio are another story. Unless you're in a situation where you CAN'T get a decent recorded sound, this is definitely a shortcut and cheating. I'm tired of hearing the same kick drum on every album these days. Even using samples myself, I go out of my way to use real raw drum sounds and mix and treat them like I would a real drum, so the end result is my OWN sound.
Just buy the most expensive pedal. Then you'll rule. Especially for double kicks and triggers which are the most non-gay things ever.
Can't figure out if you're a troll or a retard. If it's the latter, I'll actually take time to point out - often the most expensive anything is expensive because it serves a very specific niche and wouldn't work for most people.
For the record, people that say tiggers make you faster, or better, or are cheating, are idiots. Period. Trigger makes about as much difference in your playing as the mic the soundguy chooses to stick in your bass drum. At least with a trigger, YOU control this choice - not him.
A trigger doesn't effect your playing. It just effects the final sound. Cheating with a trigger, - IE using constant velocity to maintain an even kick sound, is NOT DIFFERENT than the soundman slathering compression on your acoustic kick to attain the same fucking result. Difference is, when the soundman fixes it you can play ignorant, and pretend there's nothing wrong with your technique. Whereas with a trigger, you ARE admitting your deficiencies by consciously compensating.
You're obviously right, and to add to your statement:
Not only do they not make you better or faster at all, but since they make that final sound so incredibly audible all the time, they make everyone hear ALL of your fuckups. ALL OF THEM. So in a sense, they don't make you sound different, but they pull your bass drum playing to the front, and really highlight how clear or sloppy your technique is.
Funny thing here is 5+ years ago I was yelling at Jimbo for using too many two on two fills. I was being a cocky prick, and here I am now trying to actually learn them myself and basking in the glow of Jim's superior drum knowledge. My how a few years can change your perspective.
So, i as opposed to getting into a debate about the appropriate use of triggers, i'm going to go ahead an answer your question. You asked me this the other day, and I don't think you explained it as well then. So here goes:
The AXIS pedals have SOO many ways to make adjustments that aren't obvious at all. It took me almost 3 months to really understand what to change when i desire a certain effect. I believe the adjustment you're looking for is an "alan wrench" slot on the joint that connects the top of the left spring to the housing. This is NOT a tension adjustment, and at first glance it looks not like an adjustment, but just like a way to connect the spring to the housing. If you loosen that, while holding the left beater stationary, then adjust that foward or back you will notice that it changes exactly what i think you're talking about... if that's not it, come to my room tonight and get me from my drum practice and I'll take a look at it.
i wish i knew that before i fucked with something else and stripped the screw. the pedals are currently broken pretty much
1st off, I am deeply sympathetic to you for having to maybe replace your pedals, but i gotta say:
I DEFINITELY told you about all of the different ways to adjust them, and how it took me forever to figure them all out. I definitely told you about the huge learning curve with them, and the fact that the learning curve is highly affected by the fact that your still learning how to adjust the pedal the way you want it to move.. lastly, why didn't you just wait for me before you used excessive force? I mean, to strip out a brand new screw takes some serious pressure, and i told you a bunch of times that having me there to specifically show you how to adjust yours would probably cut down the time it took you to get acclimated to them. I'm not blaming you for buying a totally complicated pedal, i just didn't like the:
"I wish i knew this before" as if I was partially to blame for not educating you before you fucked up your pedal. I already said, i'll be there tonight, come down to my room and we can look at your pedal. And no, i don't think you need to call 1 2 3, (or whatever their name is) it's still DEFINITELY in the manufactures warranty, and that way you can save dealing with 1 2 3 until you maybe need to down the line. If you call AXIS and just tell them that part freakishly broke, they'll overnight it to you. Here's their number: 1 888 457 3630 (tell em Jimbo Fitz from Boston sent you. )
Funny thing here is 5+ years ago I was yelling at Jimbo for using too many two on two fills. I was being a cocky prick, and here I am now trying to actually learn them myself and basking in the glow of Jim's superior drum knowledge. My how a few years can change your perspective.
I wanna kiss you right now. You want to do a couple lessons? I'm cheap, 20 for 40minutes. Only catch is, if i think you haven't practiced between lessons, i stop giving you lessons. interested?
So, i as opposed to getting into a debate about the appropriate use of triggers, i'm going to go ahead an answer your question. You asked me this the other day, and I don't think you explained it as well then. So here goes:
The AXIS pedals have SOO many ways to make adjustments that aren't obvious at all. It took me almost 3 months to really understand what to change when i desire a certain effect. I believe the adjustment you're looking for is an "alan wrench" slot on the joint that connects the top of the left spring to the housing. This is NOT a tension adjustment, and at first glance it looks not like an adjustment, but just like a way to connect the spring to the housing. If you loosen that, while holding the left beater stationary, then adjust that foward or back you will notice that it changes exactly what i think you're talking about... if that's not it, come to my room tonight and get me from my drum practice and I'll take a look at it.
i wish i knew that before i fucked with something else and stripped the screw. the pedals are currently broken pretty much
1st off, I am deeply sympathetic to you for having to maybe replace your pedals, but i gotta say:
I DEFINITELY told you about all of the different ways to adjust them, and how it took me forever to figure them all out. I definitely told you about the huge learning curve with them, and the fact that the learning curve is highly affected by the fact that your still learning how to adjust the pedal the way you want it to move.. lastly, why didn't you just wait for me before you used excessive force? I mean, to strip out a brand new screw takes some serious pressure, and i told you a bunch of times that having me there to specifically show you how to adjust yours would probably cut down the time it took you to get acclimated to them. I'm not blaming you for buying a totally complicated pedal, i just didn't like the:
"I wish i knew this before" as if I was partially to blame for not educating you before you fucked up your pedal. I already said, i'll be there tonight, come down to my room and we can look at your pedal. And no, i don't think you need to call 1 2 3, (or whatever their name is) it's still DEFINITELY in the manufactures warranty, and that way you can save dealing with 1 2 3 until you maybe need to down the line. If you call AXIS and just tell them that part freakishly broke, they'll overnight it to you. Here's their number: 1 888 457 3630 (tell em Jimbo Fitz from Boston sent you. )
i really really did not intend for it to sound as if i was holding you responsible for showing me how these things work, thats totally not your job and its only my fault that i stripped the screw. all i meant by that was that i could not see anywhere else on the pedal that i could adjust, so i thought that was the only way. had i realized there was another setting that i was unaware of (again not your fault) i would have done that first. but i figured if i could just adjust the cam on the left pedal, that all my problems would be fixed. i was wrong however haha.
however, that doesnt mean i didnt wish i knew about that before i went ahead and messed with something that i shouldnt have haha, however i didnt feel that it was your job to educate me. i adjusted the left pedal spring like you said but since that wasnt fixing it i tried other methods to my own result, which stripped the screw.
it stripped because i thought i wasnt tightening enough, considering how much pressure i needed to loosen the screw to begin with i figured i needed equal pressure to set it back in place. i talked to Darrel (i think) on the phone today at axis, he told me what i needed to do to fix it, the only question is if i can get the screw out now.
post by ArrowHeadNLI at Mar 25,2011 3:41pm edited Mar 25,2011 3:42pm
Funny thing here is 5+ years ago I was yelling at Jimbo for using too many two on two fills. I was being a cocky prick, and here I am now trying to actually learn them myself and basking in the glow of Jim's superior drum knowledge. My how a few years can change your perspective.
I wanna kiss you right now. You want to do a couple lessons? I'm cheap, 20 for 40minutes. Only catch is, if i think you haven't practiced between lessons, i stop giving you lessons. interested?
too far, or I might. I'm in Plymouth, and unemployed. Can't really afford it.
Funny thing here is 5+ years ago I was yelling at Jimbo for using too many two on two fills. I was being a cocky prick, and here I am now trying to actually learn them myself and basking in the glow of Jim's superior drum knowledge. My how a few years can change your perspective.
I wanna kiss you right now. You want to do a couple lessons? I'm cheap, 20 for 40minutes. Only catch is, if i think you haven't practiced between lessons, i stop giving you lessons. interested?
too far, or I might. I'm in Plymouth, and unemployed. Can't really afford it.
well, i'm close to the train, and will barter, or start tabs. you let me know, I promise it'll be worthwhile and fun! YEAH! hehehe
For the record, people that say tiggers make you faster, or better, or are cheating, are idiots. Period. Trigger makes about as much difference in your playing as the mic the soundguy chooses to stick in your bass drum. At least with a trigger, YOU control this choice - not him.
A trigger doesn't effect your playing. It just effects the final sound. Cheating with a trigger, - IE using constant velocity to maintain an even kick sound, is NOT DIFFERENT than the soundman slathering compression on your acoustic kick to attain the same fucking result. Difference is, when the soundman fixes it you can play ignorant, and pretend there's nothing wrong with your technique. Whereas with a trigger, you ARE admitting your deficiencies by consciously compensating.
Triggers definitely don't necessarily make you faster, and they definitely don't make you "better" (which is a whoooole other conversation in and of itself.)
However, they ABSOLUTELY change the way you play. It is a whole hell of a lot more difficult to hit hard and fast than it is to hit light and fast (not debatable, its the laws of physics.) Playing triggers takes that entirely out of the equation. Additionally, when you trigger a drum, you no longer have to worry about the acoustic timbre of the drum, and in my experience playing on other people's triggered kits, they tend to tune the kick drum head WAY higher, which results in a drastically different response and feel. (Nevermind an absolutely dreadful sound to listen to if you don't have a monitor wedge blaring kick drum samples in your ear.)
I take a lot of pride in making sure that the attack of my kick is audible, even when we're playing in a basement / VFW hall / club with shitty sound. Part of it is equipment (kick pads, wood beaters, iron cobras instead of axis pedals, etc.), and part of it is technique. I also take pride that the low-end of my kick drum gets WAY the fuck down there, both to the ear and especially when mic'ed. If I were using triggers, none of that shit would make any difference, and I could use the axis pedals and tap-tap away on a cardboard box. While I definitely appreciate the skill and dedication of drummers that use triggers and play WAY faster than I can, I have little to no artistic interest in ever doing so myself.
As for the bit about compression / limiting being similar to triggering--sure, it does remove some of the dynamic inconsistencies that drummers deal with. In theory, a sound guy could absolutely crush a kick sound, so that there is no dynamic variation whatsoever, but I tend to think that sounds like shit too. Compression can also be used to make drums "fat, punchy" or whatever you want to call it, without destroying all semblance of dynamics in the performance. I'll take well-engineered live drums with appropriate compression over triggered drums that sound like they're being played by a robot that is running out of batteries.
All philosophical debate aside, I'd like to state for the record that my opposition to triggers isn't because its "cheating" or anything like that. It's because they sound fucking DUMB. If I want to listen to a drum machine, I'll listen to Agoraphobic Nosebleed. Otherwise, when I see a band, I want to hear a fucking band--not an electronic representation thereof.
Let me add a qualifier--I think triggers sound dumb with MOST bands. A good drummer that chooses to use triggers can still sound really cool (I love watching Jimbo w/Boarcorpse, for example!) but far, far too many drummers use them as a crutch.
I agree with Arrowhead, can't stand listening to natural bass drum mic'd up in a live setting. The trigger really cuts through nicely
whoa, don't misconstrue me. NOTHING beats properly micing and amplifying the natural sound of an acoustic drum. It's just most clubs/soundmen don't have the room or variety of mics needed to handle every kit or drummer well. So often the best way to keep that sound room to room is to bring it WITH you via sample.
I'd actually prefer a sample of my OWN drums miced and recorded the way I like over using someone elses sound coming out of my own drum if I were a drummer in a band.
I just don't want to sound pro-samples. Ideally I like the combination of Mic, Room, Drum, and Drummer to get a unique sound. But when there's other factors working against you, triggers and samples can yield a much more controllable sound than live mics.
post by ArrowHeadNLI at Mar 25,2011 4:07pm edited Mar 25,2011 4:19pm
However, they ABSOLUTELY change the way you play. It is a whole hell of a lot more difficult to hit hard and fast than it is to hit light and fast (not debatable, its the laws of physics.)
Sorry man, I haven't finished reading your post, and I might 100% agree with the rest of it, but this statement is not only NOT true, it's the complete OPPOSITE of true. It takes FAR MORE muscle control and development to play softly than loudly. This is the laws of BIOLOGY and PHYSICS both. And as an actual drummer, you should damn well know that.
I had an acoustic kit for 5 years, and I could slam the SHIT out of the double bass. When I moved into my condo and switched to e-drums, I had to completely re-learn to play and still am not close to where I was, because using small movements and hitting lightly (to avoid pissing off the neighbors) takes WAY MORE MOTOR SKILL AND MUSCLE CONTROL to do. This is true of any fine motor movement, not just drumming.
I read the rest. I disagree with most everything you say. You still seem to have a basic misunderstanding of what a trigger IS.
Also, your comments about compression and such are a little off. Compression is something that CAN crush a kick live, it DOES. Every show you play that they've miced your kit, I GUARANTEE that the soundguy is not only compressing your kick but slathering it with EQ, cutting those frequencies you're so proud of or boosting the crap out of them (depending on the house), and you're onstage thinking what you hear is the result of your gear and technique.
In addition, the idea that triggers "sound stupid"? You're talking about fucking SAMPLES, not TRIGGERS. If I mic my own kick, and sample it at varying velocities and with different strokes and then trigger it myself via a velocity sensitive trigger, it will sound JUST LIKE MY DRUM through that mic. If I play soft, IT WILL SOUND LIKE IT! If I play hard, IT WILL SOUND LIKE IT!
What you are talking about is settings, not triggering. I can smoosh my velocity curve and FART on my kick and it will sound like king kong just stomped on my pedal. OR, I can turn the curve off completely and it will react much like a real drum - the better your trigger the more accurate.
You're in 1995, dude. Not all triggers lack sensitivity, and not every trigger is going to be using DM5 samples.
I 100% agree with WithoutArrow, it actually is harder to hit controlled, especially fast. That's why when you ask most drummers to go faster, they automatically hit louder too.
Also just a side note, in order for triggers to work properly, you really can't hit anywhere near as lightly as people think you can. If you don't put some "umph" into it, it misses all sorts of strokes. I can say this with a certainty, because for the first year or so with the AXIS i was trying to learn to do the "tapping" thing so that i could hopefully go faster in the end, but what ended up happening was that i got all sorts of bad triggering, and it made me sound lame as hell. Since then, i've moved the beaters back a bunch & cranked up the tension, and it's really really helped in making the triggers much more accurate.
And lastly, which i can't stress enough. You have to be PERFECT with triggers. Even though, yes, it changes the sound that comes out, it does not change the timing of your hits. Nor does velocity curve, or anything else short of drum edits in the studio. So if your hits aren't 100% accurate, EVERYONE in the room hears it. Have you ever seen a band with a bad drummer? It ruins the band, no one else in the band can play right when the beat is all over the place... now, that same sloppy drum can TOTALLY play without triggers, hit as hard as he can, and the bass drum resonance alone will mask the inconsistency in the timing of the hits, nevermind the fact that the acoustic sound just doesn't cut through nearly as well.
You're wildly misconstruing what I meant. Maybe that's because I'm speaking in generalities, but we're also talking quite generally...
When you're talking about playing "softly" in a dynamics sense, of course it takes more control to play at extreme low volume. If you want to get technical about it, the muscle control that it takes to play at pp or ppp is drastically more intense than playing at mf or f. No argument there.
I'm talking about metal here, so instead of the difference between pp and mp, we're talking about the difference between f and fff (if you are of the sense to believe that such dynamics markings above or below pp and ff actually mean anything.) Playing really fucking fast really fucking loud is a lot harder than playing really fucking fast not so fucking loud. Most bands metal bands that regularly use triggers aren't concerned with playing like Elvin Jones. I don't really know many drummers in our scene that need to play super fast super quiet, and if they did, they'd be told "PLAY LOUDER OR CHINATOWN!"
I know how sound works in a club. I do live sound, and work in the audio industry full time. I just like having instruments that sound good, before they're miced up. We play basements as often as clubs, and I'd rather my shit sound good before its manipulated electronically than not. If I am in a big club with a sound system that's worthwhile, I'd hope the sound guy is worth the air he's breathing. If he uses his ears instead of his eyes, he'll recognize a good sound and won't NEED to destroy the kick with EQ or compress the life out of it. Sure, a sound guy can ruin the sound of an acoustic instrument, but just because you use a trigger doesn't mean that that signal isn't then compressed or EQ'd to the same degree.
You're right that you can use velocity sensitive triggers, and that you could, in theory, have several different velocity sensitive samples too. But, if they're gonna sound EXACTLY the same, as you claim, then what's the point of using them? If it sounds exactly the same as an acoustic instrument, then why lug the extra gear?
You're right, not all triggers lack sensitivity, and not all drummers that use them are using a DM5. But, most drummers that use them regularly aren't using them in the method you described, and are trying to cover up for their own inconsistencies. It sounds cool for Drive By Bukkake, but in that case Sam is trying to mimic a drum machine. I'm not the one stuck in '95, I don't use the shit at all. I'm not saying you're stuck in '95 either...but most users are.
All I'm really getting at is that loud, live, well-mixed drums SOUND FUCKING AWESOME.
all this trigger discussion has been really helpful, but i feel like its making me lean away from triggers entirely haha. im not looking to get them to play faster, just would like to have more volume consistency in clubs where they dont mic the bass drum or just do a very poor job of doing so. its just annoying when you realize no one could hear what you were doing on the bass drum, considering i could have saved myself the trouble by just not playing with my feet at all haha.
Nope. it still more demanding to play QUIETLY. Even in your own example. Less volume = more control = more use of stabilizer muscles and micro movements which is both more physically demanding on the body AND takes longer to develop proper muscle memory. You're not gonna change science with your opinion of drumming. I understand though, your preferred technique is to play loud.
Secondly you say you work live sound, but you hope soundman doesn't use compression? I will NEVER play where you do sound. Run one show with no compression on the drum buss, or on the kick channel. I'd like to know how long people stick around to listen to the feedback. Most soundmen worth their salt aren't recognizing good sounds and not destroying it with compression. They just using it right off the bat, as is the standard in live reinforcement. They're trying to fit you to their room, not the other way around dude.
Giving a soundguy a stereo direct out to the PA, and telling them that that out is already compressed, treated, etc... is going to give you a LOT more control over the outcome. Granted, he may still choose to compress it, but you've still eliminated mic choice, room sound, etc... from the variables you're dealing with.
And when you say "you could, in theory" have multi velocity samples - not in theory. IN PRACTICE. I have it right here in my living room. I have several dozen drumkits worth of raw samples, multi-velocity, with complete control over every single variable including MIC BLEED. Every good set of samples since the original DFH has been multi-sampled like this. It's nothing new.
Well mixed drums sound awesome. But you have no control over how your live kit is miced or sounds (unless you bring your own mics and submixer, in which case you are amazing (not sarcastic - this is the best case scenario). With triggers, YOU control your sound. The soundman just gets a 1/4 inch cable. As for the sound, you just gotta understand that what YOU like is just as easily done with triggers as what you DON'T like. You're blaming triggers for something that is just a drummer's personal choice.
note the tracking and variety of sounds on the snare alone, when he switched to traditional grip. Every little ghost note and ruff. Listen to the variety and different volumes/sounds he gets out of the kick.
all this trigger discussion has been really helpful, but i feel like its making me lean away from triggers entirely haha. im not looking to get them to play faster, just would like to have more volume consistency in clubs where they dont mic the bass drum or just do a very poor job of doing so.
You can do this. One thing to know, some dipshit soundmen that are stuck in 1995 will not want to run your triggers. I saw this a lot with Cesca. We'd have guys that didn't know what it was, and didn't want to run a straight 1/4 inch to the board. Also, keep a 1/4 to mic adapter cable handy, in case you need one to run into the house's snake.
AND this bullshit about 32nds, 16ths, etc..... THEY'RE ALL THE SAME, DAMNIT!!
If we're playing a song, and the metranome says 100bpms, and you're doing 1/4 notes... then you're doing 400 notes a minute... but if you turn the metranome up to 200bpms, and you do 1/2 notes, then you're playing the EXACT SAME SPEED. it's all where you put the pulse/downbeat.
That's true in everything BUT metal, where every band/song seems to be the same friggin tempos anyway. 200bpm, and chugs on the low E (or b, for 7 stringers). Because it can be that generic, most musicians will refer to the breakdown of triplets, 8ths, 16th, 32s, etc... as subdivisions of a set speed, and not mathematical components that can be applied to other tempos (or other drums, even.)
I thought about this over the weekend.. and it hit me:
If we're talking about metal, which is generally around 200bpm, then why the hell are anything faster than 1/4 notes being discussed? Never mind 32nd notes, frieking 1/8 notes at that speed are faster than George Kollias of NILE, Inferno of BEHEMOTH, or John Longstreth of ORIGIN. In the George Kollias instructional video they point out during a bass drum excercise when he's playing 1/4 notes at 280bpm.... just to compare, if you were talking about 1/8th notes at 200bpm, (roughly what most metal is at.) That would be the same as saying you could do 1/4 notes at 400bpms... which is 120-1/4 notes per minute faster than George Kollias in NILE. (Sadly, in my bass drum excercises I'm still at about 210bpms with 1/4 notes... maybe in a couple more years i'll be able to play NILE songs..... maybe, maybe not.)
I'm not trying to say "I told you so" with this, I just wanted to clarify for future comprehension purposes. (for everyone)
Nope. it still more demanding to play QUIETLY. Even in your own example. Less volume = more control = more use of stabilizer muscles and micro movements which is both more physically demanding on the body AND takes longer to develop proper muscle memory.
also jim, good point. but you could talk about 32nd notes across a whole measure in 4/4 time, where you're right hand and right foot would hit the kick and hihat 16 times, and your left foot would hit every other time...you'd have 32 notes on the kick. this is much more realistic at 180bpm...but not out of the question at 200bpm, which for the purpose of discussion, i've heard you, me, and alex do.
Rather than repeat myself, I'm just going to post some highlights of my previous post, and if you're at all interested in continuing an actual discussion about this, we can move forward from there.
When you're talking about playing "softly" in a dynamics sense, of course it takes more control to play at extreme low volume. No argument there.
I don't really know many drummers in our scene that need to play super fast super quiet, and if they did, they'd be told "PLAY LOUDER OR CHINATOWN!" [If I'm wrong, please tell me, cause I'd love to see this band in action.]
I just like having instruments that sound good, before they're miced up.
If he [a sound guy] uses his ears instead of his eyes, he'll recognize a good sound and won't NEED to destroy the kick with EQ or compress the life out of it.
But, if they're [triggered drums] gonna sound EXACTLY the same, as you claim, then what's the point of using them? If it sounds exactly the same as an acoustic instrument, then why lug the extra gear?
All I'm really getting at is that loud, live, well-mixed drums SOUND FUCKING AWESOME.
I checked out those videos you posted too...there is not a damn thing in there that has convinced me that triggering sounds better than a real instrument. You can hear the different velocity samples clear as a bell, and while that sounds better than a Lynn Drum, it still pales in comparison to real instruments.
I take it back...nothing sounds better than a Linn Drum.
post by josh_hates_you at Mar 28,2011 10:55am edited Mar 28,2011 10:57am
uh...200 bmp = 50 whole notes in 4/4 time. 50 x 16 = 800 kicks per minute. for the record most sarcomancy songs are about 140 with me playing 8th note triplets so it's the equivelent of playing 210 bpm blasts/double bass in 16th notes http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/wfdrank.php?event=2 i know i have played up to 240. = 960
the metronome i own tops out @ 212. i have to set it at 120 and double time it. fuck i wish i could actually practice once in a while.
I checked out those videos you posted too...there is not a damn thing in there that has convinced me that triggering sounds better than a real instrument. You can hear the different velocity samples clear as a bell,
UHH, you can hear different velocities on a real kit clear as a bell too. At what point do you figure you're full of shit? Oh yeah, that's right, I can't teach you anything over the web. Plus I forgot, you're already a master of live sound and know everything about drums. And yes, live clips of Vinnie Paul are the BEST ARGUMENT I've ever heard against triggers - despite the fact that he triggers his kick live.
i'm not sure what the argument is here but basically, volume dynamics. none of this "super quiet super fast" stuff. talking about throwing ghost notes, accents, pianissimo to fortissimo, into the drumming, no matter what style your playing. triggers just can't replicate this...
triggers have a niche and that's why people use them, i'd caution anyone that wants to go the trigger route, but that's me. you should be comfortable with volume dynamics on ever part of your kit before you move on to triggers, otherwise you're not learning how to play drums, you're learning how to play triggers.
triggers apply well when the music is compressed to begin with (run-off-the-mill metal) but things like compression, dampening, and EQ can be done to your physical drums before any mics or sound guys come near your kit. i would hate dealing with triggers, and i don't trust any sound guy to do a god damn thing.
anyway, random sentences about drumming. eat them.
post by ArrowHeadNLI at Mar 28,2011 11:51am edited Mar 28,2011 11:52am
. talking about throwing ghost notes, accents, pianissimo to fortissimo, into the drumming, no matter what style your playing. triggers just can't replicate this...
Watch just the first video I linked all the way through, you'll see that this is completely untrue.
And for the record, those red triggers can actually be MORE sensitive than the cone triggers used in most mesh kits, and the plate mount triggers in most of the mylar styled pads like I have.
Sorry to keep posting - it's not the triggers on an acoustic kit that limit the dynamics. It's what the drummer uses for a BRAIN. For example, the DM5 which is the most popular unit out there for most metal drummers SOUNDS LIKE ABSOLUTE SHIT. (sorry jim, I know you use one). Meanwhile, a good roland module is like magic, even if you DON'T use their samples. It's all about how many sample/velocity layers the brain will recognize, and the software (or firmware) you use to connect it to the samples.
sound samples that a mic'd acoustic drum can produce = infinite
sound samples that the best roland brain + cones can produce = finite, even if your ear can't tell the difference. there's also a margin of error where the brain would have a skip threshold and not reproduce every hit.
that's just the digital vs. acoustic argument, it's so old.
those V-drums are the best thing to replace an acoustic kit because they feel very close to real drums...but they're not =]
live sound is a completely different issue. you can't compare mic capture to digital reproduction.
Both are equally finite if you want to cut hairs. Without going too far into it, a multi velocity sample will consist of 10-12 velocity layers. Each layer will have anywhere from 5-10 samples for EACH level of volume. Therefore, every hit - even at the same exact volume, can randomly call up any of those 10 samples at that volume. So in other words, you've got over 120 possible samples for every stroke. And as you tried to diffuse - you're right - the human ear will NOT notice a difference.
Vdrums are just the house for the triggers. Again, the ddrum red triggers are just as capable of doing exactly what I just described on an acoustic kit.
sorry about using the video with shitty drumming. The first videos I found were all rock, better drumming and sounds by far, but not a really good example of dynamic range or velocities since most people will crank the velocity curve for rock (which is exactly what everyone here is actually against - not triggers but cheap dynamic shortcuts triggers enable us to use.)
i want to hear a good studio recording, or live or whatever, of someone playing a triggered kit with chops emulating someone like Elvin Jones or anybody else ridiculous. i don't think it would compare. i've seen trigger applications work well with anything rock based, but moving further into jazz territory i just don't think something like that exists.
Jazz guys are harder to find. NOT due to limits in the technology, but because they play at volumes where very few would find need of acoustic triggers. (many jazz acts don't even mic drums)
The closest you'll find is like the Nir Z video I posted. What I'm having difficulty doing is showing you an example of how the acoustic triggers can give the identical response, because every ddrum trigger video I find is those stupid fucking DM5 samples, which really just hurt my case (IMO) with how awful they sound. The technology is the same, both are a piezo under a piece of foam touching the drum head.
uh...200 bmp = 50 whole notes in 4/4 time. 50 x 16 = 800 kicks per minute. for the record most sarcomancy songs are about 140 with me playing 8th note triplets so it's the equivelent of playing 210 bpm blasts/double bass in 16th notes http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/wfdrank.php?event=2 i know i have played up to 240. = 960
the metronome i own tops out @ 212. i have to set it at 120 and double time it. fuck i wish i could actually practice once in a while.
So your reasoning is based on assuming that the pulse is going to get a 1/4 note value.. and that there will be 4 of them in every measure. And While that would make sense if we were just talking about a specific song, that is not what the conversation earlier in this thread was about. It was about the use of triggers, and the need for them at certain speeds.. And when talking about how fast someone is playing, you would refer to what the metronome is set on, and what subdivision of that you're playing.
In other words, your example wouldn't then be referred to as playing at 200bpms and doing 16th notes, it would be playing 200bpms and playing 1/4 notes.
(remember, part of the statement i was arguing with here was: "you don't need to state the BPMs, because when talking about metal, it's assumed that the songs are at 200bpms" -arrowhead)
So you would either state your example as 1/4notes at 200bpms, or 16th notes at 50bpms.. and while they add up to the same amount of clicks per minute, one of them is in 1/4ths, and one is 16ths..
which further backs up my point of needing to say the BPMs when referring to 1/4th, 1/8th, 1/16ths, etc, because if you DON'T say the bpms, then those subdivisions mean nothing. So thank you for further making my point.
also, no offense, but i'm shocked you say you can play 1/4ths at 240.. Not because i've heard you play, because i never have, but because i thought it was you who was always putting your own drumming down.. that is you, isn't it? Anyways, you must be overly modest to be able to play that fast, say those things, and admit that you need to "practice once in a while".
By the way Jim, I was being sarcastic when I said that - thus why I followed it by saying drummers didn't know it could also be applied to other drums than the kick.
I absolutely agree, tempo is always read as quarter=200bpm, etc...
And there's no way in hell anyone here is playing 32 notes over a bar of 4/4 at 200 bpm. Hell, most of the drummers around Boston can't even do 8th notes cleanly at that speed.
i think we're still on different pages.. but that's ok. I just think that when talking about the speed with which your playing, not the speed relative to the song, you shouldn't take the time signature into account. You should just say what the metronome is set on, and what subdivision of it your playing, otherwise, it's impossible to know if everyone is talking about the same thing. When my metronome is on 200bpms, and i play 4 beats per every click, i would say that i'm playing 1/4 notes at 200bpms, regardless of how long the measure in the song is. I'm not saying that the same speed couldn't be called 32nd, or 64th notes, but that if they were called that, then the relative bpm would change too.
post by brodown at Mar 28,2011 1:26pm edited Mar 28,2011 1:30pm
I only quoted myself because it appeared that you completely ignored what I said. I also didn't realize that we were in a race, so I'm not sure what I'm "behind" on. Also, I thought there was some semblance of a coherent conversation going on here--you saying I'm "full of shit" isn't really gonna help advance the debate much. I know we're on RTTP, so I shouldn't really have expected much, but c'mon man.
Aaaaaaanyway...couple quick things before we get to the heart of this.
You never answered my question—“ if they're [triggers/samples] are gonna sound EXACTLY the same, as you claim, then what's the point of using them? If it sounds exactly the same as an acoustic instrument, then why lug the extra gear?” [In a live context. ]
I also posted a Linn Drum video, and a video of Tony Roster Jr as a 7 year old. Ever think that maybe my video choices were intentionally goofy? Humor on RTTP? It’s more likely than you think.
Also, I never suggested that I dislike or would stay away from compression. Far, far from it--compression is one of the coolest things that has ever happened to music. I just would hope that any good sound guy wouldn't apply the crushing compression you were talking about (or any amount of any processing) to any kick drum without listening to it. I’ve seen plenty of bands where the sound guy HAS crushed all the life out of the drums, and it completely sounds like shit. More often than not, that doesn’t happen to me.
You said also "you can hear different velocities on a real kit clear as a bell too." You must have misconstrued something, because that was exactly my point. A drum kit has an infinite ability for dynamic musical expression, and while using triggers/samples, be it on an ekit or an acoustic kit, you electronically regiment your dynamics into discrete steps. Regardless of how many steps that may be, you're forcefully limiting the dynamic abilities of your instrument, no?
As for the matter of dynamics/velocity/what is "harder" to do...I think we're using the same words to say two different things. I will certainly not argue that playing fast and quiet is a really difficult thing to train your brain & muscles to do. Playing quiet is hard for all musicians, especially drummers. Playing quiet can be hard, playing slow can be hard, playing fast can be hard, playing loud can be hard. Playing any kind of music well is hard. When this all started, I was specifically talking about playing loud enough to be audible in various live situations, in which case I have to put forth maximum physical effort into the pedals to be heard.
To elaborate a little more, I play in a grind band. At our gig last Saturday, my genius band members thought full stacks for everyone was a great idea. We were in a small venue, where there was a vocal PA, but no snare or kick mic. Nothing else was miced—all acoustic goodness. This is not an uncommon sonic situation for me. (I don't want to get into a debate over the stupidity of this situation. As much as it makes my musical life more difficult, the "louder is better" mantra usually holds true live, especially to a metal crowd, so I can see where my guitarists are coming from even if it grinds my gears sometimes. For the sake of argument, let’s just take that situation as a given.)
In cases like that, I HAVE to hit hard, every stroke, or else the sound gets lost. It is very, very, very difficult to get enough volume to cut through that acoustically, and I have to put forth more physical effort to make it work. I could easily back off, put in less physical effort, and get lost in the mix. It also takes a good deal of muscle control to play at “maximum” volume and keep the timbre of the drum consistent. What I’m saying is that playing loud, fast, consistent, and managing to keep a solid groove all at the same time is pretty fucking difficult. Removing any of those variables makes it less challenging.
I see grind / death / whatever bands all the time where the blasts start flying and the volume drops to an inaudible level. It is just a huge pet peeve of mine. My feeling is that if the audience can't hear you, it really doesn't matter what you're playing. Sure, a sound guy can fuck that up, but that's essentially out of my control. I prefer to focus on what I have control over, which is the tonal quality of the drums and my playing.
The stamina and dexterity required to play THAT loud and THAT fast is pretty extreme, and its much more difficult to pull that off than playing at equal speed at a reduced volume. When I first started playing out w/Hivesmasher, this was a real issue for me. I felt like I could either play the tunes correctly and get lost in the wall of sound, or I could bash the fuck out of everything, play sloppy, and hope the audience didn’t realize. (This was usually the option if whisky was involved.) Through a lot of hard work, I've come a lot closer to what I consider the ideal for that style of music—loud, groovy, and consistent. Please don't take this as me saying my playing is perfect or anything like that--its far from it. I've still got a lot of work to do. Regardless, while I wouldn’t debate that it is more difficult to play at that speed at an extremely low dynamic level, until we start seeing more metal acts playing acoustic gigs, I don’t really find that relevant to this discussion. Most people want loud when they go to see heavy music.
From what I've seen out and about, I get the impression that often when triggers are used, they're used to help keep the volume level up while the power behind the stroke goes down, or to keep the timbre of the sound constant, independent of how the instrument is stricken. I don't particularly care to hear the same drum sample over and over again in a live performance (or the same 3, 6, 12, whatever drum samples over and over again, if that's how many dynamics steps you have) so I’d rather make sure my stuff sounds good and do my damndest to play loud enough to be heard. FWIW, I'm not talking about the quality of the sample itself, or the quality of the triggers--I'm just not a fan of samples in metal. Chalk it up to artistic differences I guess, but I (usually) like my heavy music to be raw and real.
We could go on about this for years…so to sum this up: The way I'm seeing it, if you WANT an infinite ability to express music through dynamics, triggers/samples by their very nature limit your ability to do so by diving the continuum of dynamics into discrete steps. If you want consistent timbre and/or volume level, independent of the velocity used to strike the drum (depending on your settings), triggers will allow you achieve that. What you do with it from there is up to the individual, and your personal artistic preferences.
i think this friendly (lets keep it friendly people!) debate between Brow-Tim and Mr. Arrow is one that can't be answered. By either side. Debating the "Difficulty" of any two things, especially when relating to something like music, where the goals are all person opinion, is not possible. All drummers are going to want different things out of their playing, and will have totally different priorities, so what's difficult for one, because he's trying to reach objective A, will be simple for someone else, because he doesn't care about objective A, he cares about objective B.
I could argue either side, because i understand both sides. But they're not really comparable, they're different mediums of art. So everyone please, before you state that using triggers is this, or playing acoustic is that, remember, it's an art form, and it's different for everyone.
[QUOTE="brodown:1188944"
You said also "you can hear different velocities on a real kit clear as a bell too." You must have misconstrued something, because that was exactly my point. A drum kit has an infinite ability for dynamic musical expression, and while using triggers/samples, be it on an ekit or an acoustic kit, you electronically regiment your dynamics into discrete steps. Regardless of how many steps that may be, you're forcefully limiting the dynamic abilities of your instrument, no?
As for the matter of dynamics/velocity/what is "harder" to do...I think we're using the same words to say two different things. I will certainly not argue that playing fast and quiet is a really difficult thing to train your brain & muscles to do. Playing quiet is hard for all musicians, especially drummers. Playing quiet can be hard, playing slow can be hard, playing fast can be hard, playing loud can be hard. Playing any kind of music well is hard. When this all started, I was specifically talking about playing loud enough to be audible in various live situations, in which case I have to put forth maximum physical effort into the pedals to be heard.
To elaborate a little more, I play in a grind band. At our gig last Saturday, my genius band members thought full stacks for everyone was a great idea. We were in a small venue, where there was a vocal PA, but no snare or kick mic. Nothing else was miced—all acoustic goodness. This is not an uncommon sonic situation for me. (I don't want to get into a debate over the stupidity of this situation. As much as it makes my musical life more difficult, the "louder is better" mantra usually holds true live, especially to a metal crowd, so I can see where my guitarists are coming from even if it grinds my gears sometimes. For the sake of argument, let’s just take that situation as a given.)
In cases like that, I HAVE to hit hard, every stroke, or else the sound gets lost. It is very, very, very difficult to get enough volume to cut through that acoustically, and I have to put forth more physical effort to make it work. I could easily back off, put in less physical effort, and get lost in the mix. It also takes a good deal of muscle control to play at “maximum” volume and keep the timbre of the drum consistent. What I’m saying is that playing loud, fast, consistent, and managing to keep a solid groove all at the same time is pretty fucking difficult. Removing any of those variables makes it less challenging.
I see grind / death / whatever bands all the time where the blasts start flying and the volume drops to an inaudible level. It is just a huge pet peeve of mine. My feeling is that if the audience can't hear you, it really doesn't matter what you're playing. Sure, a sound guy can fuck that up, but that's essentially out of my control. I prefer to focus on what I have control over, which is the tonal quality of the drums and my playing.
The stamina and dexterity required to play THAT loud and THAT fast is pretty extreme, and its much more difficult to pull that off than playing at equal speed at a reduced volume. When I first started playing out w/Hivesmasher, this was a real issue for me. I felt like I could either play the tunes correctly and get lost in the wall of sound, or I could bash the fuck out of everything, play sloppy, and hope the audience didn’t realize. (This was usually the option if whisky was involved.) Through a lot of hard work, I've come a lot closer to what I consider the ideal for that style of music—loud, groovy, and consistent. Please don't take this as me saying my playing is perfect or anything like that--its far from it. I've still got a lot of work to do. Regardless, while I wouldn’t debate that it is more difficult to play at that speed at an extremely low dynamic level, until we start seeing more metal acts playing acoustic gigs, I don’t really find that relevant to this discussion. Most people want loud when they go to see heavy music.
From what I've seen out and about, I get the impression that often when triggers are used, they're used to help keep the volume level up while the power behind the stroke goes down, or to keep the timbre of the sound constant, independent of how the instrument is stricken. I don't particularly care to hear the same drum sample over and over again in a live performance (or the same 3, 6, 12, whatever drum samples over and over again, if that's how many dynamics steps you have) so I’d rather make sure my stuff sounds good and do my damndest to play loud enough to be heard. FWIW, I'm not talking about the quality of the sample itself, or the quality of the triggers--I'm just not a fan of samples in metal. Chalk it up to artistic differences I guess, but I (usually) like my heavy music to be raw and real.
We could go on about this for years…so to sum this up: The way I'm seeing it, if you WANT an infinite ability to express music through dynamics, triggers/samples by their very nature limit your ability to do so by diving the continuum of dynamics into discrete steps. If you want consistent timbre and/or volume level, independent of the velocity used to strike the drum (depending on your settings), triggers will allow you achieve that. What you do with it from there is up to the individual, and your personal artistic preferences.
Whoa, wait - I thought Morgan Agren (sp?) was a metal guy?
hell no, he's up there with Bozzio and those freaks.
There's more clips related to the one I posted - WOW I'm impressed. He's got some incredible chops. I always thought he was one of the Djenty guys, probably because he always gets mentioned in the same context as Tomas Haake on the toontrack site.
most drummers are flakes. That's a fact. My theory is that the act of banging on stuff and making really loud noises attracts a certain type of person.... usually low IQ, relatively aggressive, and almost always flakey. Obviously i don't mean all of them, but i think the fact that most fall into that category is un-debatable.
post by ArrowHeadNLI at Mar 28,2011 1:47pm edited Mar 28,2011 1:50pm
AFAIC - as far as i see
As for brodown - your posts are so long, and so encompassing, I'm gonna try to steer it back on track by just concentrating on your 2 central points:
1) you say triggers cannot reproduce the dynamic range of real drums. I just linked MANY videos showing this to be untrue.
2) you say playing as hard as you can is difficult, and that triggers make it easier. I disagree. VELOCITY curves make it easier. If I turn mine off, guess what? I gotta hit as hard as I can TOO.
You start every argument you make with an assumption, and I have difficulty arguing with you because the assumptions you base your arguments on are completely untrue. (Just as a singular example - you say the potential for acoustic drum velocity is infinite. Maybe, but your ability to produce consistently more than 120 different articulations is NOT. And even if it were, it's moot because the HUMAN EAR can't tell the difference.) Add in the length of your arguments, and I really think Jimbo is right - there's no winning here.
For those interested in actually LEARNING more about triggers, and seeing HOW MUCH MORE they are capable of than most people are aware, look at some of my posts and the examples I gave.
Otherwise, keep doing what you're doing, because you're a good drummer and when it comes to DRUMMING I'm in no position to tell you what to do.
i think this friendly (lets keep it friendly people!) debate between Brow-Tim and Mr. Arrow is one that can't be answered. By either side. Debating the "Difficulty" of any two things, especially when relating to something like music, where the goals are all person opinion, is not possible. All drummers are going to want different things out of their playing, and will have totally different priorities, so what's difficult for one, because he's trying to reach objective A, will be simple for someone else, because he doesn't care about objective A, he cares about objective B.
I could argue either side, because i understand both sides. But they're not really comparable, they're different mediums of art. So everyone please, before you state that using triggers is this, or playing acoustic is that, remember, it's an art form, and it's different for everyone.
right jimbo. using triggers is a means to an end to make your patterns audible and MAKE BOARCORPSE SOUND BETTER, which is different than covering up a bad drum sound or a bad drummer by slapping triggers on it. i think we can all agree with this.
Trigger story: at Maryland Death Fest 2009, Mayhem played. As far as I can tell, Hellhammer uses a DM5 sampler for his entire kit, which is huge. During their setup, he would hit the drum samples, and they sounded fucking awful. I almost left because I knew it would bother me for their whole set. So they start playing, and soon I became entranced with what they were doing on stage. They sounded phenomenal for one thing, but the show experience was unreal. One of the greatest sets I've ever seen. So, would it have been better if Hellhammer used his REAL drum sound? Not for me to say, but as regular old compressed black metal band, the drum trigger application was more than adequate for them.
I gotta reiterate, too, that the alesis DM5 is over 10 years old, and IMO is 90% of the reason people hate triggers and samples. I think they sound like absolute shit.
Of course, I'm a sample snob. I think the Roland modules sound like shit too.
Just to give some background on why I'm so passionate against this:
I love drums. I bought an acoustic kit and spent a couple years practicing and learning on and off. I LOVED it. Ironically, Jimbo is one of the people who first got me into it.
However, I had to move out of my rehearsal space, and I live in a condo. I can't make noise. So I had to pack up my kit, and I went NUTS wanting to play for years. I started researching e-drums, and this is where I found how much more triggers were capable of. Before that, I too thought that triggers were just another way to cover up the fact that Darren Ces.... uhh, I mean other drummers... barely hit their drums at all.
Once I got my kit, I jumped on it and found out the hard way. I found it HARDER to play the triggers than acoustic drums. I won't go into the reasons again, because Jim and I have pointed them out already over and over.
So when I hear people say triggers make it easier to play, or are cheating, I get PISSED because it LITERALLY took me a year to learn to do on triggers what I can do on an acoustic kit already.
As for bpm and tempo, Jim, you're off a little. Time signature does not matter. In proper notation, tempo is written exactly as I said. Note value = BPM. So if the assumption is that we're playing at 200BPM, we would set the quarter at 200, even if you're playing in 19/16.
I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you, but what I describe is PROPER musical notation, which I fucking HATED having to read in school.
I'm no drummer, but I dabble with drumming here and there. I think it's probably the most fun thing to play in all of music. I can do basic beats and some off tempo stuff, but don't have a kit to practice every day on.
Either way, I've played with both acoustic and electronic kits, and agree with Arrowhead above.
I think having an acoustic kit and practicing on one for a while, then switching over to electronic is difficult. The sensitivity take a while to getting used to. I also don't think the drums have the same "bounce" so to say, so it's hard to get used to that as well.
Kind of pointless for me to post in this thread, but I'd prefer an acoustic kit any day. UNLESS you can incorporate a triggered sound into your band, then I don't really care.
Worst sounding triggered bass drum sound = As I Lay Dying's Frail Words Collapse. Don't ask my how I've heard that album, but it was the worst thing I've ever had to listen to.
I think having an acoustic kit and practicing on one for a while, then switching over to electronic is difficult. The sensitivity take a while to getting used to. I also don't think the drums have the same "bounce" so to say, so it's hard to get used to that as well.
It is difficult and the sensitivity is a big issue.
Using my example, starting out on a real crappy kit playing punk and metal without anyone to guide me for 12+ years, I never understood volume and sensitivity at all. Unlearning the caveman technique was the hardest plateau I faced. I think if I started out playing on a bad plastic e-kit, I would have understood the difference and would have been better prepared to play a real kit in the future.
Especially with cheaper e-kits, where stick velocity doesn't really matter, learning the technique of "barely hitting the drum at all to stay quiet" goes a long way to getting true drumstick control and skill.
The Roland V-drums (yamaha makes similar ones I think, there's a lot out there) go a LOOONG way to reproducing the feel of a kit and are great to learn on for one thing.
...like brodown said, I like working with wood + metal for percussing as an artistic choice. It's like a keyboard vs. grand piano in my eyes. No comparison.
Unlearning the caveman technique was the hardest plateau I faced. I think if I started out playing on a bad plastic e-kit, I would have understood the difference and would have been better prepared to play a real kit in the future.
Nope, lol. I can attest, I'm playing an e-kit and I too have a big problem with the caveman thing. It's what I'm working on now, so if you've got any tips (I already stole the play above, not through quote) I'd be thankful.
I notice the longer I play, and the more tired I get, I tend to start hitting even HARDER. So when I get to that point, I stop and take a break for an hour.
...like brodown said, I like working with wood + metal for percussing as an artistic choice. It's like a keyboard vs. grand piano in my eyes. No comparison.
BUT, not be a dick -
You actually need to spend time playing the Keyboard and Piano before you can out of hand say it's not a comparison. I like a BMX, it's all I ever had. You love your ten speed, it's all you've ever had. How can we compare them if we don't switch bikes for a while?
So far, I believe I'm the only one here that actually uses and owns both.
Using something I'm more familiar with, GUITARS, -
I've played guitars for an hour that were GREAT, and then weeks later I find I fucking HATE it. Vice versa, I've played guitars at first that felt awful and I hated them, but after months they became my main player (my RW or Ibanez come to mind immediately). The point being, trying an e-drum or trigger briefly, especially when set up for someone ELSES playing, doesn't really give you a good example of what if can do.
It may be an apples to oranges vibe, but I see too much "I like apples, so oranges are gay. Oranges are just for people that can't handle a real apple" here.
Meanwhile, I like fruit, and find both to be full of flavor and fulfilling.
Relaxing, posture, and regular breathing go hand-in-hand with "ABOVE not THROUGH"...none of this comes overnight, it takes years.
Hitting harder when you're tired is probably from loss of concentration and the fact that you're NOT RELAXING. Sit up straight, loosen your stick grip, keep breathing. If you're muscles are physically tired, take a breather. STRETCH OFTEN, all the time, multiple times throughout the day, no matter what you're doing. Forearms, fingers, back, neck, ankles, anterior tibialis (front shin muscle), keep em loose. If you're upper arms or shoulders are tired you're doing it wrong.
The only time I really get exhausted now, and my muscles just won't move, is when I'm playing with other musicians who have more volume than anybody has any business having, or at a live show where the drums just get buried and I can't hear myself, or when I'm just consciously playing hard for fun.
Well I know a keyboard and a grand piano aren't even close to the same thing. That's just a bad analogy haha.
1) you say triggers cannot reproduce the dynamic range of real drums. I just linked MANY videos showing this to be untrue.
2) you say playing as hard as you can is difficult, and that triggers make it easier. I disagree. VELOCITY curves make it easier. If I turn mine off, guess what? I gotta hit as hard as I can TOO.
I'm really not trying to be a contrarian here...but now I'm thinking maybe I am I missing something.
Can a crescendo be performed on an electronic drum kit, or a triggered acoustic drum kit, in the same manner as an acoustic instrument? In my technical understanding, it cannot, but if I'm missing something, I wanna know!
I also should clarify what I mean by "dynamic range" in that context. I know that the overall signal level range can be matched (whether that's in acoustic power, voltage, or whatever.) What I'm aiming at is the difference between a continuously variable instrument and a discrete set of different intensity samples. It's the difference of ramps vs. steps.
As for your 2nd point...I'm not really sure what you're getting at there. Why use the triggers if not for that advantage?
1) yes, a crescendo can be done on a trigger. However, that's one of those things where you'll get better results out of better gear. For example, my alesis surge cymbals don't do it so well. But the Roland cymbals do it VERY well. Probably why those fuckers charge $300 a piece.
2) "why use your trigger if not for that adavantage" - as I started out explaining, to control your SOUND from venue to venue. Not just dynamics, but tone as well.
as for steps vs ramps, in drumming there are very few examples where initial attack and the sustained sound will vary, so they BOTH will work in steps. However, there is ONE example I think applies to what you say there - you know in zeppelin how bonham would hit the drum with one stick while pressing down and varying the sound with the other stick? That's one of the things you'd never be able to do with a trigger.
Also, the other reason for using triggers for ME is for studio/home use. Even if I COULD play my acoustic drums here, I can get more/better sounds out of my triggers. For example, I just jammed along to Killswitch Engage (hate the band, but I can at least play the parts) using a Sonor kit with a brass pearl snare, no bleed or ambience, with velocity bumped to max for even-ness (which is what you seem to hate), and a plastic beater. Then, I jammed some Triumph classic rock stuff with a Fibes kit, felt beater, and a Ludwig acrylic snare, with completely different cymbals, with a normal velocity curve.
Takes me two seconds to switch from one to the other. And the sounds are RIGHT on the money. My playing, on the other hand....
Also, the other reason for using triggers for ME is for studio/home use.
well yeah, i would love to get a v-drum kit for home and mess with samples until i'm blind, but i spend enough money keeping my kit in shape. either way drumming requires suckers willing to pay way too much money for their gear.
As for bpm and tempo, Jim, you're off a little. Time signature does not matter. In proper notation, tempo is written exactly as I said. Note value = BPM. So if the assumption is that we're playing at 200BPM, we would set the quarter at 200, even if you're playing in 19/16.
I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you, but what I describe is PROPER musical notation, which I fucking HATED having to read in school.
You actually don't have any idea what i'm talking about. ALL I'M SAYING IS THIS: if people say they can do 32nd notes, it doesn't mean anything unless they say a BPM!!!! THAT'S MY ARGUMENT!! YOU said that it's implied to be 200 with metal...... then MY REPLY was: If it's implies to be 200bpm, then no one can do 32nd notes..
Maybe i haven't been clear, maybe i'm hallucinating, but god damnit, I'm pretty sure this makes sense.
i think we're still on different pages.. but that's ok. I just think that when talking about the speed with which your playing, not the speed relative to the song, you shouldn't take the time signature into account.
if someone says "quarter notes at 200 BPM", that's 4 hits for each click, 800 hits per minute. if someone just says "32nd notes" that doesn't mean anything.
...and going by "quarter notes at 200 BPM" then yeeaah... 32nd notes at 200 BPM are not possible.
You actually don't have any idea what i'm talking about.
Whoa, nelly! I've been agreeing with you and saying EXACTLY what you're saying the whole thread, Jim. You're really taking my joke about all metal drummers playing at 200bpm and running with it.
I simply was saying that time signature doesn't matter, because I thought I read you saying it does. You actually said DOESN'T. They write quarter = bpm on a metronome for a reason. The quarter is the usual default measure of tempo. However, in say a swing groove you'd figure the DOTTED quarter gets the beat, and would write it at b.=120bpm, etc....
But I'm preaching to the choir, because we're saying the same damned thing. 32nd notes are meaningless until you know what it's a 32nd OF.
I wonder if you could plot the mathematically increasing chance that any drummer thread will eventually descend into a) arguments about fractions, b) trigger / no trigger debates, or c) both. I feel like it's a universal constant and wish to study this phenomenon further.
I wonder if you could plot the mathematically increasing chance that any drummer thread will eventually descend into a) arguments about fractions, b) trigger / no trigger debates, or c) both. I feel like it's a universal constant and wish to study this phenomenon further.
Only here. All the other forums I'm on it turns into a polyRHYTHM vs polyMETER argument for 3 pages.
You actually don't have any idea what i'm talking about.
Whoa, nelly! I've been agreeing with you and saying EXACTLY what you're saying the whole thread, Jim. You're really taking my joke about all metal drummers playing at 200bpm and running with it.
I simply was saying that time signature doesn't matter, because I thought I read you saying it does. You actually said DOESN'T. They write quarter = bpm on a metronome for a reason. The quarter is the usual default measure of tempo. However, in say a swing groove you'd figure the DOTTED quarter gets the beat, and would write it at b.=120bpm, etc....
But I'm preaching to the choir, because we're saying the same damned thing. 32nd notes are meaningless until you know what it's a 32nd OF.
only posting when in pain from pinched nerves is real... I mean.... Sorry? hehe
wow i didn't even see this post here. got some catching up to do.. but for me, i trigger my kicks when i can merely as a means of amplification. the kicks are so important in most types of metal. goto a local hall show and notice you can't hear the kicks at all, and even if they put a shitty mic on em they still don't cut through. also if you're hitting the kicks at ridiculous speeds the triggers articulate each hit so it doesn't just sound like more mud in the mix. and if you say it's cheating then play guitar without any distortion or effects. trust me, if i played shows with insane sound systems, sound guys, and thousand dollar mics, i wouldn't trigger.
i apologize if this was all already said in this post.
ALSO, i play Trick pedals now... i USED to use axis longboards until they were stolen at my last arkham white show at o'briens. so whoever took them can choke on a cock and get diarreah, pissfuckcuntanusfurburger!!! DIE YOU FUCKING WASTE
wow i didn't even see this post here. got some catching up to do.. but for me, i trigger my kicks when i can merely as a means of amplification. the kicks are so important in most types of metal. goto a local hall show and notice you can't hear the kicks at all, and even if they put a shitty mic on em they still don't cut through. also if you're hitting the kicks at ridiculous speeds the triggers articulate each hit so it doesn't just sound like more mud in the mix. and if you say it's cheating then play guitar without any distortion or effects. trust me, if i played shows with insane sound systems, sound guys, and thousand dollar mics, i wouldn't trigger.
i apologize if this was all already said in this post.
ALSO, i play Trick pedals now... i USED to use axis longboards until they were stolen at my last arkham white show at o'briens. so whoever took them can choke on a cock and get diarreah, pissfuckcuntanusfurburger!!! DIE YOU FUCKING WASTE
i use the same argument all the time. boo ya.... but yeah, it was said.
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