http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/10/minimum.wage.ap/index.html

wtf, does anyone else realize that this just fucks up the economy? Raise minimum wage and the cost of everything goes up, thereby nullifying the temporary benefit that the minimum wage earners gained and ultimately just crippling the US dollar.

who the hell earns minimum wage other than 16yo kids? illegal immigrants don't even earn minimum wage.

awol said:

Wow, you are a complete idiot.

Josh_Martin said:

that's certainly debatable, you wanna expand on that? you think raising minimum wage is going to help in some way?

Josh_Martin said:

josh martin is correct.

Minimum wage needs to be increased to at least $10/hour...minimum wage should = living wage. The economy you speak of does not take reality into account and will hopefully crumble and die in the near future. Just how the fuck are people supposed to survive in this current system if the price of food, energy, and everything else increase, but the minimum wage does not? Putting a fucking $ on everything on the planet that should be free doesn't help either.

i'm the dumbest fuck ever
therefore i'll never get a good job
never get paid good
I WILL however, probably rob a bank

HailAtWork said:

I'm not looking to debate the likelihood of surviving on minimum wage, its not realistic to expect someone to live on $5 an hour. But if minimum wage is raised, the money to pay the employee has to come from somewhere, and 9 times out of 10 that's gonna be passed on to the consumer, including the employee that just got a higher minimum raise. If everything costs more as a result of raising minimum wage, how does that benefit anyone? Those new earnings for the minimum wage earner are going to supplement the higher costs of everyday living, and if you earn more than minimum wage you aren't likely to get a raise to offset the newer higher cost of living.

Systems like welfare, food stamps, etc. are set up to supplement income of people who earn less than they need to survive (i.e. minimum wage), we'd be better off beefing those systems up instead.

life sucks...get a helmet

_______________________
[Jan 10,2007 11:23am - awol]
HailAtWork said:<<Minimum wage needs to be increased to at least $10/hour...minimum wage should = living wage. >>

I'm not looking to debate the likelihood of surviving on minimum wage, its not realistic to expect someone to live on $5 an hour. But if minimum wage is raised, the money to pay the employee has to come from somewhere, and 9 times out of 10 that's gonna be passed on to the consumer, including the employee that just got a higher minimum raise. If everything costs more as a result of raising minimum wage, how does that benefit anyone? Those new earnings for the minimum wage earner are going to supplement the higher costs of everyday living, and if you earn more than minimum wage you aren't likely to get a raise to offset the newer higher cost of living.

Systems like welfare, food stamps, etc. are set up to supplement income of people who earn less than they need to survive (i.e. minimum wage), we'd be better off beefing those systems up instead.
~~
sure, give more to people who don't work and don't raise the minimum wage for those who actually go to work
~~~
you make 0 sense

Messerschmitt is right, stay dumb, you will get more.

i'm too broke to pay attention

the min. in MA is about $7 where as in NH it is $5

RI is trying to raise it to over $10/hour...hope it goes through

awol said:

See, I told you were an idiot.

As more and more mid-level jobs get outsourced to India and the whatthefuckistans of the world more and more americans are sinking into shitty min. wage Mcjobs.
They need to earn enough not only to survive, but also enough to keep on being the happy little consumers they were raised to be.
You think a couple extra bucks an hour is anything comparable to what would happen to the economy once the majority of the population is too fucking broke to buy anything but the bare essentials???

Its called a brain. Use it once in a while.

I BLAME DELL

We should also have healthcare, a 32 hour workweek and at least 2 months vacation...but that's a whole other post.

I blame Hispanics & hail the queef.

HailAtWork said:

be realistic. 2 months? 40 hours is perfectly reasonable. 5 days of 8 hours and 2 days of rest.

When the cost of living goes up and minimum wage does not, we have a problem. If you can't see that, you're indeed a fucking idiot.

DADDY I WANTED THE BLUE CAR.

the_reverend said:

haha! i saw that video and it pissed me off to no end.

I think the concept of minimum wage makes no sense. There shouldn't be a set wage that employers are forced to pay. People should be paid comparable to the work they do. I'm sure theres some young farmhands who are making minimum wage who are real pissed off that they do lots of hard labour and make the same as someone who works at mcdonalds and stands around all day.

Of course without a set minimum wage then employers would constantly be paying less and less with no one to stop them. But theres too many employers who stick to this minimum wage and wont pay any higher because it's the lowest they can go and they feel there's no reason to pay any more. I think the people should control the wages, not the gonverment or the employers. If someone isn't paying enough then they should have a hard time finding workers and realize they need to pay more. Except there's too many people who have no problem just barely getting by that would take these low paying jobs.

I just thought of something while typing this. There shouldn't be an across the board minimum wage. There should be some type of "industry wage" that is different depending on the job. So skilled manual laborers would have a higher minimum than unskilled retail workers.

call me an idiot if you want, but if you raise the minimum wage the cost of everything will go up. For everyone. I don't get paid minimum wage so I don't get a raise to offset that.

If you don't like the wages, get a better job.

Josh, what about the non min. wage consumers that won't be able to afford the inflated cost of living? They will be buying less, so how does that benefit the economy? And if a company has to pay its employees more because the min. wage increases, that's more likely to drive them to outsource their work for cheaper labor costs, i.e. fewer jobs in the US.

Seems like there should be a better solution, I sure as fuck don't know what it is, I just don't think that raising minimum wage is it. It's just a temporary fix.

My economics professor in school would argue that awol is right. He taught the class the same stuff he's talking about. I, however, hate economics and will not touch this debate with a 10 foot pole.

awol, people in power are as stupid as you and I and the best thing they came up with is the minimum wage. If minimum wage is a temporary fix, then it's a temporary fix that has been around for like 70 or 80 years.

also, if raising the minimum wage is going to cripple the economy and make Madison and Macenzie not get their blue car, how come prices aren't higher in mass as opposed to nh when there is a 30% difference in the minimum wage? well, besides liquor. that's cheap in NH.

there should be a paying method for kids living with parents...
i.e. no one would hire this kid for 10$ an hour but 6$ an hour if he is living with his parents and hes making extra $ for himself... maybe then it would be easier for bussiness to make a bit of $ when less than valuable help is required. This would be for kids under 18 or 16 or something and up to the bussiness. Its kinda crazy to think of a 16 y-o making 10 an hour... wtf are they gonna do with it?

http://www.returntothepit.com/view.php?formid=37341

http://69.56.235.74/icon.php?text=74b7
rev... encrypt the url...

thats pretty sick tho
[IMG]http://69.56.235.74/icon.php?text=thisisprettycoolyoushouldputitinthemessageprefseveryone here is gay[/IMG][IMG]http://69.56.235.74/icon.php?text=eat a bag of DIX[/IMG]

:(

awol said:

dude, I'm not even going to bother with you until you show me some statistics that prove that paying people enough to survive is going to cause catastrophic inflation and the US will revert back to the Ford administration. I call bullshit on your whole premise.

menstrual_sweatpants_disco said:

Your economics professor is naive. In a perfect world he would be correct. However, this world is full of corrupt asshole jews.

Yeti said:


I'm being perfectly realistic, in Europe they pull it off and their dollar is worth almost twice ours...in some places I think they've actually got 3 months vaction. Fuck Reganomics...why should anyone work themselves to death to survive while a small number of assholes reap most of the benefits? This isn't what we were put here to do, this isn't furthing our evolution or expanding our consiousness, it's unnessesary bullshit that drains your soul. With the natural resources and knowledge we have, no one should have to really work more than 2-3 days a week...if that.

Josh, I never said catastrophic, just crippling. Here's some reading material which gives pros and cons:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003517622_wage10.html

Rev, MA has a higher minimum wage due to a state law, but doesn't MA also have a higher cost of living? Plus sales and income tax which take an additional 5% off the gross pay and 6% off the net pay of that 30% difference. Here's an interesting link:
http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm

Most businesses seem to stick to a national pricing model, i.e. the same CD is going to cost the same amount from Best Buy in either state. But if you raise the national minimum wage that affects businesses across the country.

Maybe a better solution is to keep the min wage at a state level, not a national level and adjust it as necessary in specific states.....

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/taxesbystate2005/index.html

In MA, state and local taxes take 9.8% of income. This includes sales and property taxes as well as income. In NH, it's 7.4%.

One way or another, government services have to be paid for. Unless you're the national government, in which case you can raise spending while cutting taxes, borrow out the ass from other countries, and cause the dollar to crash causing this whole mess in the first place.

alex, way to be a couple days behind.

HeavensJail said:

"Tax Free New Hampshire" is a total fucking myth. Sure, there's no sales tax and no state income tax. But they get your fucking money anyways. They just call it a "fee" instead of a "tax". Try registering a car in NH and you'll see what I mean.
Property taxes in NH are worse than Mass and the restaurant tax in NH is 8% as opposed to 5% in Mass. Gasoline is also more expensive in NH than in Mass.
The cost of living is pretty much the same in both states. It may even be worse in NH since public transportation here is a joke and you almost HAVE to own a car.
Look at how bad morning traffic is on rt. 3 and I-93. Everyone in NH works in Mass. because Mass. pays better.

The only advantage to living in NH is if you're an alcoholic or a smoker. Fortunately, I'm both.

Josh_Martin said:

Yeah. My economics professor also said "Mark my words. Gas prices will not drop below $3.00 / gallon ever again". That was last June.

HailAtWork said:

you hit the nail on the head big brother,

another factor no ones mentioned yet is that minimum wage workers spend a greater percentage of their income than any other income bracket, therefore any increase in the minimum wage goes directly back into the local economy.

in other news, i just heard on the radio that republicans are proposing a tax break on small businesses in order to offset the wage increase.
i think this is an excellent idea in theory, but in practice, these tax breaks always seem to benefit republicans corporate cronies more than they help the little guys that they are intended for

Baltimore raised their city contracted jobs to a "living wage" back in 1994. There were a few studies done on it and the conclusion reached was that while costs for the businesses with city contracts rose by something like 1% between 1994 and 1996 accounting for inflation they actually saved money on the living wage.

Baltimore's Living Wage Law: An Analysis of the Fiscal and Economic Costs of Baltimore City Ordinance 442

The Effects if Living Wage in Baltimore Feb. 1999

The idea that if we pay workers higher wages companies will flee for cheaper wages overseas is a complete myth. Outsourcing has pretty much gutted the manufacturing industry in this country, same goes for call centers, the only jobs left paying minimum wage are in the service sector. There isn't a ten year old Cambodian fry cook who's willing to use astral projection to work the grill at your local Wendy's at low low wages, either these jobs cannot be outsourced forcing employers to pay a living wage, or they can just automate the whole process (see, EZ Pass, Self Checkout lanes at Stop n' Shop). But think about it this way as well, if someone is supporting a family by working at McDonalds or some other minimum wage hole it's more than likely that they're not working there alone. Everyone knows at least one person who works two or three jobs to support their family, now if they could support their family on one paycheck that means a position frees up at the other one or two jobs.

Basically my support for a living wage comes down to this.

It would reduce the strain on the government's resources, reducing its size, and place responsibility on businesses. If people were paid a "living wage" there would be little need for programs such as welfare, medicaid, etc. as the entire workforce would be above poverty level; only low income seniors and the disabled would require assistance. Because fewer people would be enrolled in these programs and with the added revenue from people making a living wage (who would no longer have tax exempt status due to poverty) we would be faced with a choice, we could maintain the present tax rates and have a ridiculous surplus of money, or we could slash taxes across the board and still have enough money to fund programs for the much smaller group of people now dependent on the government.

And all the businesses playing poormouth over this whole issue have got to be fucking kidding. A living wage means that people who are currently barely scraping by will have disposable income. And where does disposable income go? Back into the economy!

HailAtWork said:

EXACTLY. THANK YOU.

According to nickle and dimes, in massachusetts, you can't live of any less than 14 or 16$ an hour.

If it's not pissible to live alone for under that amount, there's no reason companies should be paying under 14 an hour.

federal aid federal aid
we here it all the time
but it's not really federal aid
because the money is yours and mine

Since we're discussing living wages, I'll gladly explain for you all with a REAL example of where the money for wage increases comes from:

In MA, as of the first, minimum wages were raised from $6.75 to $7.50. Where does that money come from? Well, as a salaried manager, part of my own income is derived from bonuses. If I control my labor expenditures within budget or below, I receive a bonus at the end of the fiscal quarter. It's not difficult to do, as budgets are based off of how many hours your location uses on average, and I've almost ALWAYS received this bonus.

Well this year, they put out the budgets BEFORE the wage increase. That means I'm expected to hit the SAME labor dollars as before, but still pay a HIGHER wage. What does that mean? It means I will not be getting a bonus for at LEAST the next year.

You guys keep debating if this is right or wrong. All I know is, I'm going to be scraping by more than ever to pay my MORTGAGE, PROPERTY TAXES, and UTILITIES while some douchebag teenage high school kids just got a nice little bump in their living wages. Glad I can make their life at home on mom and dad's tab a little easier.

Minimum wage jobs are always entry level positions. If you want to earn more, try progressing upward in the company you work for. I don't really give a crap if some douche-nigger's first job at McDonald's can pay their rent. I'm pretty sure it was never supposed to.

It makes me happy, though, that eventually the only people that will be able to afford rent, real estate, or taxes in Ma. are people on welfare programs working minimum wage jobs. I think I'd rather take a chance on buying a house in NC and living with all the nice hard working Brazilians that have flocked there over the last couple years.

anon said:

come on brother, just because someone couldn't get a college education or maybe they just got laid off from their high paying job and need one desperately doesn't mean they are a bad person...

there are people out there just like you and me but have bad luck and need these jobs to survive i'm sure you worked hard to get where you are, but seriously saying shit like that makes you look like you're selfish.... i can't stomach people like you all cause you want a little bonus. if you can't survive on your own salary i would suggest you looking in upping your position.

Dumbass.

My salary IS part bonus. Without bonus, I'd make about 8000 less a year. The idea of bonus incentive it that you control expenses, which is part of the job in the first place. It's not like I can walk into work in the morning and say "fuckit, I'm just gonna throw an extra 100 hours on the schedule".

I don't get down on someone who has had hard luck, or needs a job. I do get down on schmucks who want to take an entry level disposable labor job and expect a living wage.

I got dozens of people who work from me at entry level that complain about low wages. Then a few of them are smart, work their asses off and become a shift manager. What does it require? Commitment. Thats it. No further education, nothing. Anyone is free to do it. And the shift managers, that complain about not making enough? My company and many others will hand pretty much anyone a manager's job just for having unlimited availability and a pulse. In some cases, maybe a high school diploma.

People that say they're trying to live off minimum wage have no excuses. Raising the minimum wage only helps the assholes that want to go wage fishing and jump from company to company, entry level to entry level. That, or unmotivated assbags who want to be a fry cook for 30 years, and just keep getting raises, and raises, and raises.

awol said:

raising minimum wage will not raise the cost of living. it WILL raise wages across the board in lower income brackets, which is good. low-wage earners do not have enough buying power (even with a raise) to affect things such as the price of cars, houses, rents, etc. they are just barely scraping by as it is. some people work minimum wage or entry level jobs because it's all they are able to do, or because they enjoy it. it doesn't mean that they are not contributing to society, and it doesn't mean that they shouldn't enjoy the same quality of life as anyone else.
raising minimum wage means that rich people have to share with the people who do their work and make their opulent lives possible. i'm ok with that.

p.s. ANON-- if your company has enough money to give you a bonus, they SHOULD be sharing the wealth with everyone (i.e. raising wages). not giving bonuses to people like you who only help to perpetuate socioenconomic divide.

Thats some good socialist bullshit, dave.

However, this is a capitalist society, and in fact low wage earners ARE less entitled to the same quality of life. You wanna share the wealth evenly? Get outta here.

Secondly, you also do not grasp the concept of bonus incentive. It's not a BONUS, like Oh hey, I set the high score. I get an extra $1000.

It's a bonus incentive. They pay you say $2000 a month. $1500 salary, and a potential for $500 bonus. Then, they give you budgets, sales goals, and tell you to hit them. If you do, you get the $500. If you don't, and you don't CONSISTENTLY, you lose your job.

It's not EXTRA money for going above and beyond. It's more like money they take AWAY from you when you don't live up to their expectations.

And again, it's not like I'm special and some big high grand poobah at my work. Any single person here could walk into my company off the street with unlimited availability and a high school diploma and have my job.

the_reverend said:

??? the thing was there today... i just noticed it? hmmm?

anon, i understand what you're saying about the incentive. i don't disagree with it as a concept, just in that particular situation. rewards for exceptional performance are good. if you're doing your job just as well for less pay, that sucks. i understand your discontent. but you know, that's part of capitalism too. your boss doesn't care about you, he cares about himself.

this statement doesn't make sense to me though, maybe i'm slow, but i'd like to hear why you think some people's contributions are worth more than others'.
anon said:

and it hasn't always been a capitalist society. and the class divide wasn't always this extreme. when this country was founded almost all of us were poor. we have survived this far as a captialist machine, but i don't think it'll last too much longer before those on the 'bottom' get fed up enough with those on the 'top' to make a real change.

sxealex said:

Just punch Aaron in the face. He's gotten too uppity.

Honestly, I don't think it's going to make any difference with minimum wage going up. Shit will continue to get more and more expensive. Maximum wage baby!

anon said:

Dumbass, you are mad at the wrong people. Instead of blaming people trying not to starve on $7/hr you should be pissed at your asshole bosses who screwed you over by setting your goals BEFORE the wage increase went through that they damn well knew was coming. Your boss fucked you over, not Jose the frycook.

Dumbass.

Adam Smith said:

it's funny to see people think this means prices of things need to go up, like anything is actually made in this country anymore.

minimum wage should be $14 an hour, $20 in the city. it's totally unreflective of the actual cost of living and always has been. if you make minimum wage you need roommates here. probably a lot of them. like in china. only china is actually doing better now.

Oh no, you're right. Gas hasn't gone up at all. I was serious about maximum wage.

RichHorror said:


your sucker punch has been shipped order confirmation #

You really do have to make at least $15/hour to live in MA...I had to move into RI because of it. The whole system blows, jobs and bosses are so unnessesary...so are most taxes.

work more than one job. thats hows it done people.

Screw that, my objective is to work the least possible # of hours to survive comfortably, I'd rather spend my short amount of time on this planet doing things that are meaningful to me instead of working hard so someone else can be wealthy.

sounds like you need a career in politics then

Taxes are necessary. People that bitch about taxes are idiots. I like having a police and fire dept., I like having garbage men take my trash to the dump, I like having my mail delivered, my community college funded, etc.

Fuck- The point is you shouldn't have to work two jobs to live. ALL wages should rise with inflation. If the government wants to save a buck they should take it out of the pockets of big corporations and not the people busting their ass to feed themselves.

Of course, realistically that will never, ever happen. Joe CEO will continue to shit on a gold-plated toiled seat while the rest of us live paycheck-to-paycheck.

anon said:

I just read this again and are you seriously expecting ANYONE to feel sorry for you? You just said that the less money you pay out to your workers, the bigger your bonus is. So, basically, you live off of holding out on raises and paying shit wages. I hope your house gets forclosed on, middle management scum. Some time seeing how the other side lives would do you some good.
Because, it's only teenagers who work shit jobs. That is total reality right there.

Oh well, at least your bosses seem to be fucking you as bad as you fuck your workers.

how do you like them apples?

yummy said:

well they're not as good as your mother's pussy, but they aren't bad.

Josh_Martin said:

It'll be great when all the kids who are only working under him to get through college become his bosses.

Josh_Martin said:

Good job reading. Now try again, and this time go for comprehension too. Or is that asking a little too much of you?

I don't rake in huge bonuses from stiffing kids on wages. I receive the "bonus" portion of my salary for meeting budget expectations, where if I DON'T meet my budgets I will most likely lose my job. Any retail management position you find usually pays the same way. You hear the word "bonus", and immediately draw conclusions that are way off base.

And again, the example I gave is to show WHERE the money for wage increases is going to come from. Most companies are paying out MILLIONS of dollars in wage increases due to the minimum wage increase. They're going to cut that money anywhere they can find, especially by taking it out of the people who are making MORE than minimum wage.

I already explained, theres advanced opportunities for anyone who wants to step up to higher position to make more money. Anyone who works for me that wants more money ALWAYS has that option, and I've always encouraged it. In fact, in the week since the wage increase, I've just pushed 3 kids through for additional raises, because they were already making 7.50 after years of busting ass and getting small raises here and there, and now they were making the same amount as kids who'd just been hired off the street.

It's not that I am screwing people out of money, it's quite the opposite. Before, I'd be paying a kid off the street working his first job ever for a little extra spending money in high school 6.75, and that kid working 35 hours a week on top of going to college and trying to scrape up a little savings would get the most I could get them, 8 or 9 dollars, whatever. Now, no matter the circumstances, I'm budgeted to a point that they're both gonna get stuck with 7.50.

And before you get all pissed at the evil corporate entities screwing people out of money, we're talking about millions of dollars in increased labor costs. If you were the business owner yourself, you'd probably end up having to close your doors, or layoff a lot of good hard working people.

But good for you, Josh! Good of you to hope my house gets foreclosed on. I guess that also means you're happy about the college kids that won't be getting the raises they deserve this year. You're probably happy for the people that will now be stuck working twice as hard, because I'm left with fewer people to cover the schedule due to budget cuts. Most likely you relish that your friends and family working for my company are all affected by this, one way or another. Not just my company, but many others as well. You go Josh! Stick it to the man!

davefromthegrave said:

Good you should mention that scenario, dave. As a matter of fact, one kid in particular who worked for me a few years ago just finished college, and was hired into our corporate marketing department making a lot more money than me and in a much higher position than me. He was in my store today, and mentioned how I used to bust his balls and tell him he should cut back his hours and concentrate on school when he was fresh out of high school and more interested in partying than getting good grades. At one point he was considering dropping out of school and entering the management program at work so he could make more money. I told him it was a bad idea, and that he should finish school.

Sure, he's my boss now. However, he treats me with nothing but respect, because I've never treated him with anything but the same.

I encourage ALL my employees to work hard and go to school when they can. Those who can't, I've been known to go out of my way to get them raises, promotions, or anything else I can do improve the quality of their life.

The point I made was pretty clear and you and Josh just seem to stupid to get it. The kids working for me will always be a priority. They will get their raises, and I will always pay them the best I can. The point was, after the minimum wage increase my ability to do so for them has now taken money out of my OWN pay. But yeah, I'M the bad guy here, right?

umm...yeah.