Are You Ready for the Energy Crash?

http://www.alternet.org/envirohealth/36017/

While most of us are preoccupied with the astronomical price of gasoline, a far bigger energy catastrophe is brewing that will make pricey gas seem like a walk in the park. It's "peak oil" -- the term for the period after which global oil and natural gas demand outstrips supply and the prices for these commodities become too volatile for modern society to function...

Maybe if we were allowed to drill in ANWR or Nevada

http://www.klastv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4877010

George Knapp, Investigative Reporter
Nevada's Hidden Treasure: Black Gold
May 9, 2006, 10:43 PM EDT

Those prices at the pump could make any of us wish we had an oil goldmine in our backyards, but that wish may not too far off the mark in Nevada. Geologists think there could be billions of gallons of oil under Nevada's deserts. If so, why hasn't anyone found it? Eyewitness News has reported in past years about Nevada's petroleum potential.

Nevada BLM Oil & Gas Lease Sale Information

As the price of crude has passed $60 and then $70 a barrel, companies have been gobbling up the mineral rights to vast tracts of government land here. So, when are they going to start drilling?

On certain outcroppings in central Nevada, you can pick up a rock, bust it open, and literally smell petroleum, or something like it. Deposits of chainman shale are thicker there than anywhere outside of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. As far back as 1905, Nevadans were touting our state's oil potential.

Alan Coyner, with the Nevada Commission on Mineral Resources, said, "We have an established track record for oil production in this state and people know that."

State minerals chief Alan Coyner is bullish on Nevada's oil potential, and with good reason. The single most productive oil well in the nation sits in Nevada's Railroad Valley. The Grant Canyon well peaked at 4,000 barrels per day -- more than 40 million barrels overall -- and is still pumping decades later.

Other pools of oil have been found in Railroad Valley but nothing like Grant Canyon, and as it's output has lessened, so has the state's, dropping from more than 3.5 million barrels per year to less than 500,000 barrels today.

In spite of this trend, the buzz has never been bigger. Last year's discovery of a billion-barrel field in neighboring Utah has would-be oil barons licking their chops. Four times each year, the Bureau of Land Management holds public auctions where wannabe wildcatters can be for the mineral rights on government land. The minimum bid is 2 bucks per acre, but spirited competition can drive the price much higher.

It's a fascinating process, for the gamesmanship if nothing else. Bidders play their cards close to their chests. Since anyone can nominate a parcel to the auction, cagey oilmen have been known to pad the auction list with less desirable parcels as distractions for the competition.

Of all the bidders during this recent auction, only one was willing to talk about his plans. "This is a fun hobby. It's a grown-up treasure hunt," said Curt Rosen, a Michigan oil investor.

Rosen got the oil bug many years ago and when a $360 investment ended up paying him 7 figures per year for several years, he was hooked. On the day we saw him, he picked up 300 acres of BLM land.

George Knapp: "What's next with your parcels?"

Curt Rosen: "I'm going to sit on them and accumulate more."

Oil speculators lease the rights to large chunks of land in hopes that someone bigger will come along and buy them out or cut them in. Few of them are interested in the risks of paying to drill themselves. Only three new drilling permits have been approved by the state this year. None of the three has started drilling. One reason is geology.

Nevada's twisted and fractured geology makes it very tough to find the oil that everyone believes is down there, and far more expensive than drilling somewhere else. Although the potential is enormous, the big oil companies find it cheaper to drill in, say, Indonesia.

Alan Coyner continued, "It's tough to explore for oil here. The faulting and geothermal activity creates a difficult situation in the search for oil."

So it's left to the little guys, the dreamers, to roll the dice and hope for a score. And if one of these Rockefellers-in-waiting does find oil, the big companies will come calling.

Curt Rosen added, "It's a poker game without the house taking a percentage. Mother Nature is the house."

Another factor in a lack of drilling here is a shortage of drilling rigs. With so much new drilling elsewhere, Nevada doesn't have enough rigs since we're a long way from the centers of oil productions. These rigs can cost up to $100,000 a day to lease. The same rigs are needed for geothermal exploration. One of these days, though, someone will hit a pool here and the shortage will vanish.

Yeah, great idea, let's destroy one of the planet's last great remaining wilderness areas, a refuge none the less, for a 6 month supply of oil. We should just keep doing exactly what we're doing, drilling and spewing poison into the air and water and land, raping the planet until nothing is left, that's a wonderful idea. Then there can be no food or air or water or energy for anyone, and we can all be in massive debt while we slowly poison everything and starve to death. That'll really work out well.

once again, let Infoterror do his job.

There's also that section of land in northern Alaska that has tons of oil under it. Damn hippies won't let us touch it, and then say we're screwed cause there's no more oil. Wanna know what the true solution to all of this is: Kill all the hippies and get on with the drilling.

This whole "end of the world due to the lack of oil" cry baby shit is blown out of proportion. We do have the first steps to finding alternative fuel. We have a working vegetable oil engine, alcohol engine, propane engine, bio-diesel engine... but we don't have one that will accomidate the population of the U.S., let alone the world. I bet thats what those "skateboard kids" ment by they have the technology, they have the technology to develop these things, it just takes time.

The funny part of that whole article was how that guy bitched about how we need to get rid of our oil dependancy. He never once gave a valid alternitive. So, if we got rid of oil, what are we going to use?

ANWR shouldn't be touched.

HailTheLeaf said:

Too bad that the enviorment is actually a lot better now than it was back in the 70's. Patrick Moore, one of the founders and former president of greenpeace, has said that everything that the U.S. has been doing since the formation of greenpeace has helped the enviorment greatly. We are doing everything we need to do to keep the enviorment healthy for future generations. Is it perfect? No, but its a work in progress.

SHUT THE FUCK UP

people who want to drill in ANWR are obviously yuppies who are posing to be metalheads who care nothing at all about the the metal lifestyle. i'm tired of all these cry baby conservatives jumping ship and using agless liberal tactics for their benefit. i also love how all them hate it when people talk politics but are the first ones to fuel the fire by offering lame arguements by attacking the basic fallacies of journalism, further more supporting their facist stances as commies. red = red

There is a part of me that wants to see oil drilling in Alaska just so when gas prices continue to rise, you people will realize that it was never about oil, but about who's pockets the profits go into.

When animals that once existed don't exist anymore that is a greater atrocity then people having to oh my god walk somewhere... fuck you know there once was a time when cars yes it's unfathomable but they did'nt exist.But I must say fuck you to the hippies too because the fact is hippies today are no way like the flower children of old you think all those VW micro busses are really helping gas prices get a hybrid.

Only after the last tree has been cut.
Only after the last river is poisoned.
And after the last fish is caught.
Only then will you realize your money cannot save this earth.

that's a fine and dandy idea but society has become so busy that we need cars to get things done efficiently

you wanna carry your amps to the next show a state away?

don't blame cars...or people with opinions...blame greedy reptilian shapeshifters

Well you got me there fuck carrying bass amps!

the environment is so gay.

I typed "pisscup said something brilliant" but I guess it didn't post.

Morbid_Mike said:

correction, there are no hippies today. the hippie movement will never return. being left wing automatically doesn't make you a hippie. if anything, "hippies" won't be complaining when there cars are ineffective, it will most likely be those conservative pussies who are to scared to face reality.

Ya know what? It might be a good idea to wait making all these accusations till the end of the Enviomental wars conferrence ( http://www.environmentalwars.org/ ). Its happening in the begining of june. At the meeting, experts from both sides of the debate are going to finally get together and come up with some answers to questions like "When will our oil finally run out?", "How fucked is the enviorment?", "Do we have the technology to move in another direction?"...

ya know...the people that actually make a difference as oposed to sit on the internet and bitch

hahahahaha we're all guilty

i dont know who to believe. i really dont think the earth is in as bad of shape as everyone points it out to be. global warming for all we know could be a natural warming trend, i mean it has been steadily warming since the ice age. sure there are things that have been directly affected by something, ie. building in a wetland or garbage heaps, but the earth is MASSIVE. to poison a planet i believe would take way more than we are capable of, especially with all of the environmental whistle blowers. we're only going off of what some "expert" has concluded, and how do we know we are being fed reliable information? for all we know these "experts" could be feeding us some story in order to boost conservation.

granted we arent helping the planet with what we do, and there are places worse off than others due to population, but as billions of years of evolution has proven, things heal themselves. nature always bounces back. sure there may be a catastrophic event in the future due to something man did, but i dont believe this shit about the planet dying and eventually we'll have to move off of it because it will be a toxic sludge hole. most of what i read about global disaster bullshit is just some pig headed conservative spewing whatever rhetoric they feel is applicable.

people don't realize how huge and chaotic life is

BSV@school said:

what the fuck does that have to do with anything?

THIS IS METAL BOARD.

this isn't gonna be one of those arguments that invariably turns into an "im more metal than you" elitist argument is it?

I'm a fucking COWBOY, Dig?

Man_of_the_Century said:

If this is the same guy I'm thinking about, he also says that greenpeace has turned into a quack-wackjob organization that shouldn't be taken seriously.

And, you know about Turtle Bay? That was another area in Alaska that they drilled in. All the environmentalist loonies got their panties in a bunch and said that the caribou would be destroyed. Well, guess what? The caribou population TRIPLED!! Why? They used the heat from the OIL PIPELINE during the winter to survive.

And in turn of oil prices, this wouldn't have any effect on the market for 10 years. But it would have been useful had we not been blocked from drilling there 10 years ago, either. Thanks, greenpeace!!!

i'm not sure if you're agreeing with, arguing with, or just didn't read what he wrote

only if it becomes another "stop these evil elitists from picking on me" things.

hey man...you brought it to that point

it's my pleasure!

ELITIST!

that's how i roll!

Pat Meebles nli said:

Please don't label me as a hippie wackjob environmentalist liberal for pointing this out but... Tripling the caribou population will have a negative impact on the environment in the long run. Maybe I should move up to Alaska and open up a caribou meat packing plant to do my part.

i dont think he was talking to you

has everyone gone mad?

I'm an elitist, I've passed out drunk at more shows than most people who post on this board could ever dream of going to.

see what happens when commie conservatives try to think!

environmentalist loonies with their crazy ideas that "it's science that we'll run out of oil and destroy ecosystems continuing on this path." Definitely nutbags over there.

seriously though, you're gonna use an extremely bizzare example of an oil pipeline helping out a population of animals and act like people who think that continuing this bullshit are crazy for thinking it's ultimately bad for pretty much everyone and everything in the world?

I should've quoted...I was talking Caribou

you're all nuts...im done here

anytime anyone is better than me, i call them an elitist, i find comfort in knowing success is horrible. watch all these liberal tough guys sterotype anyone whose awesome, just watch.

I'm a legume, goddammit.

Pat Meebles nli said:

When deciding on which side to believe in the environmental debate, the whole issue is, like many things, a matter of common sense: given what we know of humanity, what is a more believable and powerful motive? Greed from corporations who don't want regulations, or unnecessary concern about fictional environmental problems?

You forgot to add the third group: Uncompromising lefties who are motivated only by their hatred of capitalism.

"The Caribou be damned! I just don't want an oil company drilling in a deserted wasteland that happens to be next to a wildlife reserve."

brian_dc said:


I'm using an example to show how everyone in the envirmental loony bin said that turtle bay was going to be disastrous for the enviroment, and then they were proven to be completely wrong. Now, we have the same circumstances IN THE SAME REGION, and these same people are STILL against it.

And I think I read Man of the Century's post wrong. Sorry about that. The argument still stands for all you other anti-drilling people.

PatMeebles said:

Let's say I give you the benefit of the doubt and add that group to the common sense question.

In a debate that has been ongoing for decades, which suggests evenly-matched sides, is it reasonable to believe that fictional environmental concerns and people who hate capitalism have the same degree of political power as multi-billion dollar corporations?

Or, would it be more reasonable that any legitimate environmental concerns would be counterbalanced by the short-term financial interests that drive our economy?

republicans are just jealous that liberals are naturally more facist than them.

TOUCHDOWN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

conservatives are the biggest pussies going. they're always talking about being a victim, and being restricted, and now being the minority, and losing their jobs to people who work harder than them.

BornSoVile said:

Most of that is right except for the pussy and bitching parts....that's a Liberals' job, man.

Oh, and I'm ready for this "CRASH." That's why I live in a log cabin in Maine, own 12 acres, and am currently in the midst of a GREAT turkey hunting season. Deer season is next, then turkey again, then moose, and a ton of fishing in between.

You Massholes are gonna have a tough time of this one....have fun, city dwellers!!!

Man_of_the_Century said:

Brazil has been using alcohol to run cars for 20 or 30 years, there are engines that run on water..I'm running my car on used veggie grease...figure it out. Why continue to use something that's poisonious, environmentally destructive to obtain and burn, and increasingly expensive?

HailTheLeaf said:

Because the energy output is not as good and it actually costs more to make than gas. Brazil is just subsidizing everything.

Plus, the drilling part is much better than it would be 30 years ago. The US goverment already mandates that a certain component to gas can't be in the final mix, and it contributes to the rising cost of gas at the pump.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2690341.html

Pat's got it right there. These things work for countries with lower driving populations like Brazil. Do you have any idea how much corn would cost if we switched to an alcohol engine? Do you know how much more money it would cost to produce that much alcohol in order to power all the things that gas does (just so you know, it costs more to refine corn into fuel than crude oil)? All those things would apply to oil as well. And water... we go through water shortages as it is, do you honestly think using a water engine would work?

Lets say for a second that one of these things was able to work in our culture. Its not going to get rid of oil drilling. You still need greese and oil to run your engins. You still need crude oil to make plastic and synthetic rubber (most rubber is synthetic or we'd have no more rubber trees). All of these solutions you are thinking of are wonderful and great, they just don't work.

So have scientists just decided that solar powered cars weren't working? Because pairing photovoltaic panels on the roof of a car with the whole "braking charges the battery" idea seems like it would give electric cars an infinite range.

I don't know about this breaking charge thing (I've never heard of it), but the only solar cars that have been built are only drivable on a sunny day.

They are still working on it though, I do know that.

Man_of_the_Century said:

You obviously have no idea how solar power works. Nor do you understand the concept of a renewable resource.

pisscup said:

Something tells me that you actually have no clue about solar power. If you did, you'd know that no one has built a solar car that is able to run without direct sunlight (although the solar pannels do charge batteries in the car, the car takes so much energy to run that those batteries don't last that long). Also, solar powered engines only put out 2-5 Hp, about the same as a lawn mower. Hardly enough to replace a car.

All I know is that if we can make R/C cars run why can't we just build BIGGER R/C cars with giant batteries. Problem solved, no more oil, no more emissions, ten times the RAD as I cruise down the street in my neon green and black car that is capable of driving up walls and on its side.

And nobody can dispute the awesomeness of owning a car called THE CRUSHMASTERNATOR

the braking system on hybrid cars uses electricity when the brakes are applied, that's part of the way they've cut back.
i know a chick who's apart of an engineering team at mcgill university in montreal, they build solar power racing cars that travel from 40-60 km.

pisscup said:

i made christmas lights run on solar power for school. made me realize how many solar cells you'd need to run something useful. alot

i think he does and you don't understand that most renewable resources like trees for example are currently in a decay rate.


i don't think we have to completly get off oil. the hybrid was a really good idea, but why do you have to stop there? how about a car that runs on grease, gas and batteries? and have the engine boil water, so you have steam working that shit too.

Man_of_the_Century said:


Actually I happen to be friends with some people who own a company that produces/installs solar panels. They have also built a solar powered/hybrid bus. I also know quite a few people who live completely off of the grid due to there use of solar power.

Other than what you have learned in school or read on the internet what is your experience with solar power???

BSV: "the braking system on hybrid cars uses electricity when the brakes are applied, that's part of the way they've cut back."

you sound like my mom talking about computers there... I'm not saying you are wrong.. but let's just say you are talking modern jackass.

Modern jackass:“A little bit of knowledge can be a very bad thing.”
ie: knowing enough about something it sound convincing and even convince yourself/others, but not being correct at all.

HOW HYBRIDS WORK: this is all from my memory... so I might be a modern jackass too. it's a simple principle. actually, it's like the simplest electric principle ever! when an electric motor runs one way, it's a motor. when an electric motor runs "backwards" it's a generator. (when you have an magneticfield, it causes an electric current to flow following the right hand run along it's rotation) the "first" hybrid car was made in like 1917.

hybrid cars have an electric motor. when you are coasting or breaking, the electric motor spins backwards. this causes electricity to be generated and feed back into the batteries. the bearking is called regenerative breaking. this push back already happens in a standard when you "eat up" your speed by downshifting, but instead of the power just disapating in your engine, it's stored in the batteries via the emotor.

and bob: you would have to charge your giant RC car somewhere... and that energy would be from coal/nuclear.

eddie: the current that flows is tiny, but solar power isn't for driving things. also, it's not stable enough. it's for trickle generation. you feel solar cell plates into a battery/capacitor with a transformer so that you can voltage regulate from the battery. I actually thought the other day it would be awesome to turn all your house's chingles into solar cells. that would be so neat... just think if we could make that work and cheap. then your house would push energy back on the grid all day and only pull when you got home.

pisscup said:

Exactly, the bus is not run on just solar power. You can't (at the moment) make a vehicle that runs on just solar energy.

About the solar powered house... I didn't say anything about running a house on solar power, I was talking about cars. You can get solar pannels for homes, you just won't have as much power as you would if you used powerlines.

You are right, everything that I know about solar energy I learded ion school or through the internet. But when did "knowing someone" qualify you as knowing more than someone?